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2016-17 NBA Season: no IT ITT

evil1

Well-Known Member
Well Oladipo and Kanter were suppose to be building blocks for the future - otherwise, why hand out those contracts?

At least we can all agree that those were terrible moves by Presti

I get why they made them, but, yes, those were bad moves.
 

NML

Well-Known Member
Well that's kind of my point, and why I haven't answered OU. In a vacuum, sure, Melo for Kanter and whatever is a good deal. But if you use context, I struggle to walk away from this calling Presti the goat like this thread has been

Even in the context, I don't hate the deal for OKC
 

silverwheels

PLAY LA BAMBA BABY
I'm less concerned with how the team fares (unless they're just awful) and more pleased with the organization showing it has learned from the past and wants to keep players like RUSS around and are willing to do whatever it takes to at least make that a worthwhile option for him.
 

OU11

Pleighboi
Utopia Moderator
Well that's kind of my point, and why I haven't answered OU. In a vacuum, sure, Melo for Kanter and whatever is a good deal. But if you use context, I struggle to walk away from this calling Presti the goat like this thread has been

Even in the context, I don't hate the deal for OKC

If Russ (and if he does, both Melo/PGIII are gone) leaves are they better off or worse off?

If Russ stays and PGIII leaves, are they better or worse off?

I'm not sure you've ever seen Kanter or Dipo play basketball so I'm not sure if you can answer those questions. And the fact you haven't answered me just tells me you're trolling for kicks, which I'm fine with too. But I'll keep asking you to explain your trolls because I'm fascinated in how you will try to do that. This is a rare opportunity because most of the time when people troll here there is a good number of people around the world that think the same way, you are probably the only person on earth that is even entertaining the idea that these are bad moves.
 

evil1

Well-Known Member
Not to throw gas on the fire, but would you rather have the trio of RUSS-Melo-Paul George or Kyrie-Horford-Hayward?

GMT_WebBanner_MOBILE1.jpg
 

doh

THANK YOU Dermott McHeshi
Well that's kind of my point, and why I haven't answered OU. In a vacuum, sure, Melo for Kanter and whatever is a good deal. But if you use context, I struggle to walk away from this calling Presti the goat like this thread has been

Even in the context, I don't hate the deal for OKC
Yeah but part of why you sign Kanter to that deal is the mechanics of trading in the NBA with salaries needing to (almost) match up.
 

NML

Well-Known Member
If Russ (and if he does, both Melo/PGIII are gone) leaves are they better off or worse off?

If Russ stays and PGIII leaves, are they better or worse off?

I'm not sure you've ever seen Kanter or Dipo play basketball so I'm not sure if you can answer those questions. And the fact you haven't answered me just tells me you're trolling for kicks, which I'm fine with too. But I'll keep asking you to explain your trolls because I'm fascinated in how you will try to do that. This is a rare opportunity because most of the time when people troll here there is a good number of people around the world that think the same way, you are probably the only person on earth that is even entertaining the idea that these are bad moves.

When did I say it was a bad deal? Go head and look, I'll wait

I'm honestly not trolling. My issues that I brought up are

1) Melo and Russ together does not seem like a match made in heaven since they are both ball dominant and play between average and no defense. That's why I really liked the George deal - he's a total plug and play guy who can be one of the best defenders in the league, drain 40% of three's, while also excelling in iso.

2) that Presti is some sort of genius. You even said if they go 0-82 it's still a great deal. Who's the one trolling?
 

OU11

Pleighboi
Utopia Moderator
When did I say it was a bad deal? Go head and look, I'll wait

I'm honestly not trolling. My issues that I brought up are

1) Melo and Russ together does not seem like a match made in heaven since they are both ball dominant and play between average and no defense. That's why I really liked the George deal - he's a total plug and play guy who can be one of the best defenders in the league, drain 40% of three's, while also excelling in iso.

2) that Presti is some sort of genius. You even said if they go 0-82 it's still a great deal. Who's the one trolling?

Because the value of each side is so lopsided. These are ridiculous trades from a value standpoint. All three together is going to be rocky and I don't see how it works either but Presti is demonstrating his ability to trade shit and get quality in return, which is good.
 

NML

Well-Known Member
Because the value of each side is so lopsided. These are ridiculous trades from a value standpoint. All three together is going to be rocky and I don't see how it works either but Presti is demonstrating his ability to trade shit and get quality in return, which is good.

Well the value is only lopsided if the moves made to acquire the other players are also lopsided.

The Melo trade is great if you think Kanter is garbage. The PG trade is great, especially if you think Dipo is garbage.

I'm not disagreeing that I'd make the deals. Just that Presti isn't a genius because it's his shitty moves that put them in this position in the first place
 

OU11

Pleighboi
Utopia Moderator
Well the value is only lopsided if the moves made to acquire the other players are also lopsided.

The Melo trade is great if you think Kanter is garbage. The PG trade is great, especially if you think Dipo is garbage.

I'm not disagreeing that I'd make the deals. Just that Presti isn't a genius because it's his shitty moves that put them in this position in the first place

Shitty move, but sure. Kanter deal had to happen. Only a GM who wanted to lose his jerb would not match that deal
 

NML

Well-Known Member
I think I heard the same thing about matching Jeremy Lin. And Omer Asik. Tyler Johnson. Otto Porter

Sometimes, letting an opposing team hamstring themselves is a better choice
 

OU11

Pleighboi
Utopia Moderator
I think I heard the same thing about matching Jeremy Lin. And Omer Asik. Tyler Johnson. Otto Porter

Sometimes, letting an opposing team hamstring themselves is a better choice
not going into durant's last year. youre telling him to leave if you dont match kanter, so none of those examples are relevant. if you're using his decision to leave anyway to tell urself it was a bad match then i cant argue with that, i dont think presti has a crystal ball tho
 

GuyIncognito

pressure cooker full of skittles
Just lol @ "the thudner don't have anything beyond this year."

They got about $85 million in new cap space, which is more to build on than what they would have had in the absence of these trades and assuming RUSS left.

Unless you're getting ready to defend a starting 5 of Christon, Oladipo, Roberson, Patterson, and Adams as a contender in the West, I'm not sure what the hell the "derr, now they got nothing past this year" argument is meant to accomplish.

Once Durant bailed, this is the best anyone could hope for.

*Scratch that, this is far better than anyone could hope for. If you could go back to the day after Durant's decision and say "a year from now you're looking at Westbrook, Roberson, George, Melo, and Adams," is there anyone in the world other than NML who wouldn't be impressed?
 

GuyIncognito

pressure cooker full of skittles
Presti didn't make Harden insist on a max deal or ownership decline to spend the money to keep his money-chasing ass, he didn't make Durant leave for nothing.

As far as "playing the hand you're dealt" goes, Presti's reputation is well-earned. Keeping OKC relevant without a Greg Popovich to buy people in is an impossible job and he's doing it.
 

NML

Well-Known Member
I don't think anyone is going to convince me that signing Kanter was a requirement. He was massively overpaid on a franchise that has continually shown it will not go into the tax for the long term. There's always creative ways to acquire players with high salaries, I think the flexibility was more valuable than overpaying him.

And Guy's salty post just proves my point - since having Russ/Durant/Harden/Serge, he's made several bad to terrible moves that have forced him into the moves he's just done, which likely result in a full restart if/when Russ leaves.

If ur going to praise the guy for simply having almost no one under contract next season for next season, then I really don't know what to tell you.
 

GuyIncognito

pressure cooker full of skittles
What are the bad moves? Again: Harden wanted out, and ownership didn't want to go into the tax. That's not Presti's fault. Durant wanted out: again, not Presti's fault.

Where are all the free agents just dying to play in fucking Oklahoma City for under market value?

And yeah, having almost no one under contract next season is preferable to what they were headed for before these trades, which was to have an utterly non-competitive team taking up their cap space.

If Russ leaves they need to blow it up. If they hadn't made these changes, they'd still need to blow it up if Russ left. So that factor hasn't changed. What's changed is that a year after losing Kevin Durant for nothing, this team is a contender instead of a circus.
 

NML

Well-Known Member
- Trading a first round pick for Kanter
- Giving Kanter a 4 year, $70 million contract
- Trading Ibaka for Sabonis (who looks like a bust) and Oladipo (who by OKC fans accounts isn't any good)
- Giving that not-any-good Oladipo 4 year, $84 million contract
- Giving a one-way player in Roberson a 3 year, $30 million deal

Who was the last good draft pick he had? Adams? How many picks since then are even on the team?
 

OU11

Pleighboi
Utopia Moderator
I don't think anyone is going to convince me that signing Kanter was a requirement. He was massively overpaid on a franchise that has continually shown it will not go into the tax for the long term. There's always creative ways to acquire players with high salaries, I think the flexibility was more valuable than overpaying him.

then you would want durant to leave. it's as easy as that, you either want durant to stay or you dont and you act on kanter's match accordingly
 

Reel

Off dem Milds and dat Yak
Community Liaison
i hope Omer Asik is ok

dude hasnt played ball since February after a trip from Mexico

Me tho? I'm excited for the pels. I dont give a shit about pre season predictions. This could very well be blown up by AS break, and im ok with that

I will try to go to more games this season than i ever have before. The Blender is gon be lit af

Rondo
Jrue
T.Allen (probably doesnt start...i think Miller beats him out in camp...or least im hopeful)
AD
BOOOOOGIE!!!!!
 

OU11

Pleighboi
Utopia Moderator
there is a reason portland gave kanter that shitty offer and it's because every person in the league knew okc had to match. if they didnt they would be blamed for durant leaving, they chose to save money going into his last year rather than keeping a key bench guy. they cheap, durant was right to leave. okc would never choose winning over money.

instead they matched and traded him for carmelo anthony.
 

GuyIncognito

pressure cooker full of skittles
So in your opinion, turning Serge into Melo and George is a net loss for the Thunder. I'm a Serge lover and all, but yeesh.

If Kanter had been on a better contract they'd have still made the trade for Melo, so I'm not sure what that point is meant to be. That would have been better for the Knicks, not the Thunder.

Dude's been the GM for a decade and all you got is that you think he overpaid for Oladipo and Kanter, who he subsequently turned into George and Melo.

Oh, and he pays a one way, elite defender $10 million a year. Fucking behead him.
 

NML

Well-Known Member
So in your opinion, turning Serge into Melo and George is a net loss for the Thunder. I'm a Serge lover and all, but yeesh.

Please quote where I said that

If Kanter had been on a better contract they'd have still made the trade for Melo, so I'm not sure what that point is meant to be. That would have been better for the Knicks, not the Thunder.

lol that doesn't make it a good move. Just because the Knicks were so desperate to get rid of Melo that they took on one of the worst contracts in the league doesn't make it less of a bad contract.

Dude's been the GM for a decade and all you got is that you think he overpaid for Oladipo and Kanter, who he subsequently turned into George and Melo.

Oh, and he pays a one way, elite defender $10 million a year. Fucking behead him.

My god you are so level headed with everything but thudner.

I didn't say he was bad or that we should behead him. I'm saying he's overrated in ur minds (and the minds of a lot of people, imo)

If I dissected his deals more I could probably find lots of things he did wrong, just like with any GM. But I don't care enough to do that - plus, it doesn't matter because ur happy with where the franchise is now so any preceding move is irrelevant

Dude had three of the best 15 players in the league - probably four of the best 30 - just a few seasons ago and now you think he's done great because they will have $85m in cap space next season
 

NML

Well-Known Member
And let me save you the effort of "he couldn't control Harden/Durant wanting to leave" because you refuse to lay blame at anyone other than Harden and Durant for that
 

GuyIncognito

pressure cooker full of skittles
Dude had three of the best 15 players in the league - probably four of the best 30 - just a few seasons ago and now you think he's done great because they will have $85m in cap space next season

You got this exactly backwards. He should get credit for drafting and trading his way into a great team. He shouldn't be blamed because guys like Durant want to play somewhere else. All Presti can do is bring them in the door, and he did. If they want to leave, that's their call. They're not slaves.

He gets credit for the cap space next season because they were headed for a shitty situation in the alternative.

Crappy team + cap space > crappy team + no space to move.
 

NML

Well-Known Member
The only reason they were heading into a shitty cap situation is because of the bad contracts he kept handing out haha
 

GuyIncognito

pressure cooker full of skittles
Wrong.

They're headed for a shitty situation because guys don't want to live in Oklahoma and play for an unproven staff. Durant and Harden are on Durant and Harden, not Presti. Serge is on Presti, but he leveraged that into a better situation.

If Westbrook and George leave for LA, that's not Presti's fault either. Blaming the GM for shit he has no control over is an unreasonable standard.
 

GuyIncognito

pressure cooker full of skittles
They traded Harden for pennies instead of letting him walk and people bitched. They let Durant walk instead of trading him and people bitched.

People will bitch no matter what he does. The fact of the matter is that he's presided over a team in a shitty market for a decade and has accumulated one of the best records in the league in that time.

Any standard that says Presti isn't doing a great job is a ridiculous standard and deserves to be mocked.
 

NML

Well-Known Member
Wrong.

They're headed for a shitty situation because guys don't want to live in Oklahoma and play for an unproven staff. Durant and Harden are on Durant and Harden, not Presti. Serge is on Presti, but he leveraged that into a better situation.

If Westbrook and George leave for LA, that's not Presti's fault either. Blaming the GM for shit he has no control over is an unreasonable standard.

This is completely wrong. EVERYONE KNOWS GEORGE IS GOING TO LA NEXT YEAR. That's why he was so cheap. That's why he's a one year rental with limited value.

They traded Harden for pennies instead of letting him walk and people bitched. They let Durant walk instead of trading him and people bitched.

People will bitch no matter what he does. The fact of the matter is that he's presided over a team in a shitty market for a decade and has accumulated one of the best records in the league in that time.

Any standard that says Presti isn't doing a great job is a ridiculous standard and deserves to be mocked.

Right, we agree - he mishandled two situations and was correctly judged on both.

You just refuse to place any blame on him for anything. Why couldn't he get more for Harden? They had leverage - its not like the Pacers where Harden's agent was leaking a story that he was walking at the end of the year for the Lakers. Even IF it was obvious he wanted to leave, they still had leverage in deciding where that was. And of course it's worth mentioning that Harden was a RESTRICTED free agent, meaning he was literally forced to stay there if OKC wanted.
 

GuyIncognito

pressure cooker full of skittles
This is completely wrong. EVERYONE KNOWS GEORGE IS GOING TO LA NEXT YEAR. That's why he was so cheap. That's why he's a one year rental with limited value.

That's George's decision, not Presti's.


Right, we agree - he mishandled two situations and was correctly judged on both.

You just refuse to place any blame on him for anything. Why couldn't he get more for Harden? They had leverage - its not like the Pacers where Harden's agent was leaking a story that he was walking at the end of the year for the Lakers. Even IF it was obvious he wanted to leave, they still had leverage in deciding where that was. And of course it's worth mentioning that Harden was a RESTRICTED free agent, meaning he was literally forced to stay there if OKC wanted.

If your options are A or B, they can't both be the wrong answer.
 

GuyIncognito

pressure cooker full of skittles
So you'd trade Westbrook if he doesn't sign on the 16th, right? Let's get you on the record ahead of time for once.
 

NML

Well-Known Member
That's George's decision, not Presti's.

If your options are A or B, they can't both be the wrong answer.

You can't be serious? Presti has actively acquired a player that has made it very clear he does NOT want to play anywhere but OKC. Presti made this decision.

Option C is if you think the player is leaving, get a fair haul for him.
 

NML

Well-Known Member
I should rephrase and say I don't necessarily think he handled the KD situation poorly. I honestly don't know enough about everything to know which was he was leaning. If you thought he might stay, I think he made the right call in hoping he'd resign. But, as an outsider, I felt like he'd probably leave
 

OU11

Pleighboi
Utopia Moderator
i dont think the owners let him handle the harden situation how he wanted to, but that's speculation. if he was in control and could go into repeater tax territory then he handled it shittily.

nobody remembers that the rose rule was first applied to durant and it ate hardens money
 
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Southpaw

Fuckface
Utopia Moderator
So if Wade joins the Cavs they gon have, LBJ, IT, Derek Rose, Kevin Love and Wade? If this was 2010, they would really be something. Still good enough to poop on everyone else in the East though.
 

NML

Well-Known Member
Buford (Spurs) is number one. Then, in some order, it's Ainge (C's), Myers (GSW), Ujiri (Toronto), and Riley (Miami).

As a follow up, all of these GMs have made really bad moves very recently, other than maybe Myers. Spurs missed on LMA, Ainge going all in on maybe the tenth beat team in the NBA, Riley having no back up plan to missing on Hayward, Toronto didn't do enough to get back to the ECF.

It's really the thudner fans inability to admit that Presti has done any wrong that triggers me.
 

OU11

Pleighboi
Utopia Moderator
presti has done too much right to dwell on the mistakes he almost immediately turned into california king sized blue blankets. harden is the only real indefensible move and since i dont think it's truly on him, at least not 100%, he's a genius manager
 

evil1

Well-Known Member
The biggest knock on Presti is that he overpaid Kanter and Oladipo (although neither were a max contract). These were fairly minor mistakes given that both are young and fairly productive players. In contrast, trading for Paul George and Carmelo were huge successes that may substantially improve the future of the franchise. Taken all together, Presti is coming out way ahead.
 

evil1

Well-Known Member
Ainge made one great move when he fleeced the idiotic Brooklyn Nets. He has not made a great move since and has ended up with a less talented team than Presti has.
 
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