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Multiple Formation Shifts Cheese?

fanoftgame

Active Member
Online opponents that I have some of the toughest times defending are those that do multiple formations shifts presnap especially after no huddle.

I always felt that formations shifts were pushing it but especially if its done multiple times after no huddle where you have the whole clock to continually shift.

One of the main reasons I feel its tough because defensively after a couple shifts I tend to get stuck on defensive side of the ball.

Example. Start in pro > 5 3x2 > to trips left where they run zone read or through bubble.

Now I have my audible set and can adjust to each formation after about one shift. But You usually have to manually move players to remain sound. Then If they shift again or motion a player you have to reset your defense (square+ L2) which sometimes doesn't go back in time. Or you have to reaudible your defense and while you have to manually adapt to the different alignments issues or be unsound.

The alignment problems is really the main issue I found. Some defensive formations just don't match well the offensive formations as we know. And I find that formation shifts at fast pace exploits this.

Now I'm a guy if it works on me I like to incorporate it into my scheme as long as its not cheese.
Ideally I would run an offense similar to Oklahoma with Sam Bradford( once personel group, multiple formations, and no huddle)I have been hesitant to add this tactic but I consider myself a pretty decent defensive player(as you decent as you can be in NCAA) this has constantly given me problems.

Your thoughts?
 

LEGEND

Well-Known Member
I don't like it because it changes your hot routes.. Plus you can't audible like the offense can! They can audible two or three times, you're very lucky if you can twice! The Oklahoma offense sounds like a good idea!
 

fanoftgame

Active Member
I feel the same way on both issues. I have decided not to use that tactic.

As far as the Oklahoma no huddle one formation offense I highly suggest it. To me most teams a one ideal good personell group. I find no real logical reason to take them out of the of game to be substituted by a lesser player.

This was confirmed to me when I was reading some Bill Walsh where he talked about in 2 min offense or when the game is on the line make sure you have your best personell on the field. This simple thought made me wonder
why not always have your best personel on the field.

1. As above you have your best players on the field at all times
2. You can use multiple formations to take advatanage of the defense or down and distance. You still have formation variety WITHOUT ALERTING THE DEFENSE WHAT FORMATION (AND PLAYS) YOUR RUNNING PRE SNAP.

Number 2 is the main reason I use it because I don't really no huddle consistently. But It still gives you some of the advantages of the formation shifting without being cheese no holding all the time or constantly shifting.
 

LEGEND

Well-Known Member
Tried your Oklahoma offense Idea in two of my online dyn's... It went really well in one. It failed in the other. Second dyn I don't have the talent. My O-Line sucks and my wr's are very slow. One has 75 speed the other 80. While they did get open... my qb either couldn't Get it to them or db recovered because their lack of speed.
 

fanoftgame

Active Member
Tried your Oklahoma offense Idea in two of my online dyn's... It went really well in one. It failed in the other. Second dyn I don't have the talent. My O-Line sucks and my wr's are very slow. One has 75 speed the other 80. While they did get open... my qb either couldn't Get it to them or db recovered because their lack of speed.

Did you do the no huddle version or the modified version by just staying in the same personel grouping?

I ask because when you say you dont have the personell I dont quite follow. I would believe the concept adjusts to any style of play.

The main thing your aiming for is your best personel on the field at all times and the defense never having an idea what formation you will run based on personel.

So wutever your best personell is should give the best results.

I will say this concept does breakdown a little if your best personell cant be easily be subbed into multiple formation packages. Ex base 1hb 1fb 1te, 2wr. This package is limited in many playbooks as far as i have found. 4 wides gets a little limited too. I find 11 personell to be really good and if you go two really good receiving tes 12 personell is probably my favorite. I have murdered people with iowa using this concept staying in 12 personell all game. Going from ace big one play to shotgun trips te in the slot the next. Same personell but stresses the defense in totally different ways.

Also this same concept is also what has partially help me take down high level fsu players with the likes of navy.

I stay the same 30 personell all game. But one play im in flex normal the next pistol trips, and near the goal line/short yardage you can go heavy formation with no tip off.

No huddle really turns up the heat because your going to keep ur best in anyway so no real point to huddle anyway except if you feel its cheese.


What I have done since im a lobby dude where its a free for all. I dont constant no huddle but I will after 3rd down. Again reason being I don't want there special peronell in the game on the crucial down, and since my best are on the field there is no real reason for me to huddle


Monday deleted all my vids off my phone but this is a drive with navy that illustrates the concept. Same personel different formations and plays. Guy had abut 90+ wins and was at least 20 games over .500 so he at least was decent.


Sorry flex guys not as much triple as I should've in this drive:D. Trust me I gave him a good dose throughout the game

 
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LEGEND

Well-Known Member
I tried the no huddle but my teams talent is not good. I have one of each... a good TE,QB,RB & WR. My offensive line is poor though. My other WR's are ok but very slow 75 and 80 speed. They get open initially, but the db closes quickly because they're so slow. Plus with QB accuracy set at 5 most throws are off target anyway.

Add the poor run gm do to my bad O-line and it wasn't fun at all! My TE is not much of a blocker either. The concept.is good but the team is just plain bad!
 

fanoftgame

Active Member
@LEGEND

Yea I see. At some point its not about X's and O's but Jimmy's and Joe's.

I just believe in trying to make your offense as efficient and effective as possible and I think this concept does this.

As a side note, do you have any success with that team in any concept?

If you are struggling offensively with that team I would stay in 11 personnel. I would rely heavily on my TE (which I do in my offensive anyway).
The reason being is the TE is your mismatch player on offense. If he is a receiving threat I look at him as a 4th receiver when I want to pass
and a fb when I want to run.

So you could go to the line of scrimmage and visually check the defensive personnel. If they don't treat your TE like a 4th receiver and play base or nickel defense
with your TE being cover by a backer or safety then you go to your passing game with your TE as the primary target in the passing concept.

If they treat him like wr and play dime or quarters and cover him with a corner, now you have a mismatch in the run game with TE( poor mans fb) setting the edge
vs a db. You should have success running outside zone away from the core of line(where your weak) to the edge where you have ratings mismatch in the running game.

This way of play calling should take care of man to man defense which by your post is your main problem(wr separating). As he has problems with mismatches created by your TE then he will have to play zone where you don't have to worry about wr separation, just zone beaters.

This is why a good TE has become my favorite offensive weapon. To use a basketball analogy they are like Lebron James or Carmelo Anthony. These players always require double teams on the court because they are two big for the small quick players(post up), and they too fast for the bigger and stronger players(off the dribble).
Your TE are the same way. Too strong for DB in the run game, but to fast for linebackers in the passing game.

Again this is not a cure all and you might know this but I hope it helps your or someone else.
 

LEGEND

Well-Known Member
I'm going to run the concept in one of my other dyn's. The only concept that really worked with that team was a Pistol concept I tried. I'm losing my WR & RB though so not sure what to do.

[BCOLOR=#fcfcff]Been running a no huddle slot scheme that's been really effective! I took I-slot,Weak-slot & Split back's slot and a couple pistol and SG formations. They all have a FB in them... I love TE's like yourself. My FB's are usually converted athletic TE's. [/BCOLOR]

It's given me a lead blocker in the run gm and a pass threat while also providing pass protection, as well as quick hitting FB dives. I recently added several twin TE formations that allow me to really run and chew clock when needed. It also get 's my best players on the field... I'm usually pretty stacked at the TE position.
 

fanoftgame

Active Member
I'm usually pretty stacked at the TE position

Nice.

Irregardless of scheme or concept the fact that you have good TE's I would think eliminate the problem with man defense because of the mismatch issues.
Does it not?
 

LEGEND

Well-Known Member
Nice.

Irregardless of scheme or concept the fact that you have good TE's I would think eliminate the problem with man defense because of the mismatch issues.
Does it not?

Yes & No...

I suck at passing and don't see the field well. I tend to have a target in mind and stare him down. So I miss a lot of my mismatches. I tend to throw too often early to the TE and it's taken away. Or I have them open and can't make the throw. The latter is the most common... I can't seem to figure out how to make the touch throws.
 

LEGEND

Well-Known Member
Actually switched my scheme/concept up. The slot was really clicking but wasn't getting rushing numbers I wanted. I avg around 175 a gm.. I want to be more around 225-250 a gm. My wr's were having a blast though.. LoL!

I'm using 21 personnel now. The TE and FB provide passing threats and protection. The FB is still good for quick hitting dives also. Also starting to figure out my passing issues.. I have to break some bad habits. I've been trying to lead the receiver too much! I've also been leading them wrong... In wrong direction.
 

LEGEND

Well-Known Member
I played a game with Michigan yesterday. They have a pretty good 21 personnel book.

I was actually looking to start using Michigan as my online ranked team. Either them Washington or USC. I'm loving 21 personnel... It's a lot of fun.

My only issue is the FB & TE whiff or ignore a lot of their blocking assignments. Smh!
 
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