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Sperg about Motor Racing thread

Hollywood

Sun Drop Junkie
Mod Alumni
Where’s the incentive for Verstappen to NOT take out Hamilton at Abu Dhabi? If they both fail to finish, Max wins the title. I forsee a Suzuka 1990 moment upcoming.
 

Wolfman21

Well-Known Member
the minute they went riding around the track behind a safety car for multiple laps and didn't red flag it they created controversy. Someone was going to consider this shit "rigged" no matter what happened at that point. I'm not up on the rules of how many lapped cars should be allowed to pass, etc etc etc so i'm not going to comment on that. But my thought is they should have went to red flag conditions immediately. That way you have, what, a 3-5 lap sprint on equal tires? Seems the fairest way to go about it to me.

As for what they could handle...the mercs fucked hamilton by not pitting him under the first safety car. The absolute ONLY way they could lose this race/championship was by having him out on 40+ lap older tires than Verstappen and having a late race safety car and putting the championship in the hands of the FIA.
 

Hollywood

Sun Drop Junkie
Mod Alumni
After Lewis got to cut the track and gain a position and a 1.5 second advantage with no penalty, fuck them. Mercedes got what they deserved.
 

hayvis

Will-Gnome Member
After Lewis got to cut the track and gain a position and a 1.5 second advantage with no penalty, fuck them. Mercedes got what they deserved.

Not really when he was 12 seconds ahead before the safety car. If he was 1.5 seconds ahead I could see your point.

It's quite simple how they manipulated this and it will end up in court. Masi thinks he had the right to pit the safety car a lap early when he didn't (wouldn't even matter if all the cars passed, although that's another rule break). It'll go to court, and my strong hunch is that it will drag on, Mercedes will threaten to pull out of 2022 and eventually the title will be voided not reversed and some kind of honourable mention to the two will go down in the history books. I don't think they can just give the title to Hamilton. They have every right to see this through and looking at the signs from the Mercedes camp they will. I think they will think like others that is it's allowed to carry on like this it will make F1 no better than WWE.

Here is a good summary -

 

Hollywood

Sun Drop Junkie
Mod Alumni
They’ve got nothing. F1 owns the ball and the playing court. Nobody in their right mind is going to overturn a race result like this after the fact. Mercedes not winning yet another title is the best thing to happen to the sport in a decade or more.
 

hayvis

Will-Gnome Member
They’ve got nothing. F1 owns the ball and the playing court. Nobody in their right mind is going to overturn a race result like this after the fact. Mercedes not winning yet another title is the best thing to happen to the sport in a decade or more.

Nope. You're wrong, which is why Mercedes have gone radio silent. They're going to the court of arbitration in sports. They have to appeal to set that in motion. Mercedes have the same team that overturned the Man City ban. I don't think you're up on sports outside the US. They don't have the same protections as in the USA.
 

hayvis

Will-Gnome Member
PS. I think you're insane. The competition was the best thing to happen to the sport in a long time. Meddling with the rules was the worst thing to happen. I won £100 on Verstappen winning (knowing it would be a fix up), so honestly, I'm not butt hurt about it, but this is going all the way.
 

Wolfman21

Well-Known Member
What happened, in layperson terms?

There was a caution with 4 or 5 laps to go. Hamilton had a 10+ second lead over Verstappen with 4-5 cars in between them. Apparently FIA rules state that the lapped cars "can" be let through which would put Verstappen right behind Lewis. The FIA at first said that they werent going to allow this, and then changed their mind and basically in the same lap only let the cars between Verstappen and Lewis by and not all of the cars. Mercedes is saying that if they had let all the cars go, they would not have been able to restart the race which would have made Hamilton the winner.

With what happened, if FIA doesn't allow the lapped cars through, Red Bull can complain that they didn't follow the rule book(even though the rule book allows for some leeway there). If they allow all the lapped cars through and the race finishes under safety car...well that is an extremely boring and anticlimactic finish to the best F1 season in recent history. If they only let some through and go back to racing for the last lap...they get their finish, but Merc is obvioiusly furious.

Which is why i said the only reasonable way to have resolved this would have been to red flag it at the beginning. The way they handled it made sure that whoever lost was going to have a "case". If you red flag it, nobody has a case. If Lewis wins, well he was going to win anyways. If Verstappen wins, Lewis just got a shitty draw on the late race accident and still "should" have won with the better car. And the fans win in this case as well as they get a 4 lap sprint to the championship with the top 2 dueling it out. Red flagging was the best case scenario....and the FIA bungled it.

IMO, Max is still champion. You can't take away his title because the FIA fucked up. No idea how euro courts handle this type shit so i'll leave that up to Hayvis. But Max will forever be the 2021 F1 champion. Lewis can go for #8 next season and I'm sure the Mercs will be heavily favored even in the new car as they spend and have more people than every other team in the paddock.
 

hayvis

Will-Gnome Member
So there are more angles to it than not letting all the lapped cars pass. The FIA are trying to say that they were allowed to let the safety car pit with one lap left as the race director has the final say over it, but the rules clearly state that it should pit on the following lap after the lapped cars pass not the current lap. If you look through the twitter post that I've put up the defence is piss poor, and the rules have to hold together as one and were being used in isolation by masi and corrupted (any lapped cars does in this instance mean all).

In a nutshell, Masi and the FIA wanted a one lap bonanza at the end and broke a load of rules getting it, and Hamilton didn't stand a chance, because he didn't have tires left. I don't know how you can say Verstappen is a champion when it was basically gifted to him. Hamilton controlled the race other than the last lap, when he didn't have the tires to defend, and was basically lined up by the FIA as a sitting duck.

There's also incredibly dodgy radio communication between Masi and Horner, where Masi suggests the race is done and Horner pleads with him for "just one lap". It's fucking corrupt.

Outside of the US (I think there is an iron fence around US sports where they can do what they want; ie - salary caps which aren't legal in any other part of the world), disputes can go to the CAS (Court of Arbitration in Sports). This is a slam dunk for Mercedes. The only thing that stops them will be a deal of some kind, but as they have sponsors etc... to answer to, I can't see them stopping for "the sake of the reputation of F1" - although that's been reported.

Christian Horner has apparently flown back to Milton Keynes so the appeal/court case is probably on.

My personal opinion is that it was a sham and the fair result would be to void the championship. I don't see how you can let it stand and I don't see how you make Hamilton champ. It just has to be written off.
 

hayvis

Will-Gnome Member
Merc is going to drop the lawsuit tho

It's not a very believable report. Just says Toto was considering dropping it. Headlines have been over done. They would have surely dropped it by now. May be gauging the fallout.
 

Hollywood

Sun Drop Junkie
Mod Alumni
Hamilton could have pitted just as Verstappen did. But I’m sure Mercedes would be singing a different tune if he had, Verstappen stayed out, and the race ended under safety car (or if it was red flagged and Verstappen changed tires for free). He was fucked by virtue of being the leader. Shit happens in Nascar all the time with green-white-checker finishes. If the leader stays out, everyone else pits. If the leader pits, 10 cars will stay out and he loses anyway. If Latifi doesn’t crash, he cruises to a 10 second win.
 

hayvis

Will-Gnome Member
Hamilton could have pitted just as Verstappen did. But I’m sure Mercedes would be singing a different tune if he had, Verstappen stayed out, and the race ended under safety car (or if it was red flagged and Verstappen changed tires for free). He was fucked by virtue of being the leader. Shit happens in Nascar all the time with green-white-checker finishes. If the leader stays out, everyone else pits. If the leader pits, 10 cars will stay out and he loses anyway. If Latifi doesn’t crash, he cruises to a 10 second win.

If Hamilton pitted then he would have lost track position and Masi would probably have ended it under the safety car. Mercedes also took the decision based on the information available at the time, which was that the race would end under the safety car. The absolute crux of this is that by the rules it should have ended under the safety car. There are now a lot of previous quotes from prior races from Masi about how the safety car absolutely had to stay out until they had unlapped all lapped cars. It was rigged for a spectacle, and you can't do that.
 

hayvis

Will-Gnome Member
Even Verstappen's mate thinks it's dodgy as fuck, not that there's anything subjective in this -

 

OU11

Pleighboi
Utopia Moderator
Well they can because they did, and it was dodgy as fuck. Merc will drop it because taking it further will do more damage to the sport and it's not like Lewis won't have an asterisk on this shampship if he claims it just as Verstappen has one now. Idk how Merc will go about lobbying to make sure this doesn't happen again but I really doubt they continue with this to change the result. The only reason to do so would be the bonuses due to the employees, I doubt Lewis would want it to go through soley based on winning but I'm sure he does mean it when he talks about employees' incentives mattering to him. I doubt anyone wants to win a race in court.
 

hayvis

Will-Gnome Member
Well they can because they did, and it was dodgy as fuck. Merc will drop it because taking it further will do more damage to the sport and it's not like Lewis won't have an asterisk on this shampship if he claims it just as Verstappen has one now. Idk how Merc will go about lobbying to make sure this doesn't happen again but I really doubt they continue with this to change the result. The only reason to do so would be the bonuses due to the employees, I doubt Lewis would want it to go through soley based on winning but I'm sure he does mean it when he talks about employees' incentives mattering to him. I doubt anyone wants to win a race in court.

This is the thing though. Have been reading that some team officials may want to drop it, but that the pressure from the sponsors etc... will be to push forward with the protest, and they won't be able to say no because they are the paymasters. I also think that F1 stands to lose far more of it's reputation if they don't go to court. Even the absolute laymen over here think it's wrestling level fixed, and wonder what the fuck went on. The only people not complaining are those that desperately hate Hamiklton or wanted a new champion.

IMO the biggest indicator that this is going all the way is that we've heard literally nothing from Merc.
 

hayvis

Will-Gnome Member
in other words, no one's going to buy F1 closing ranks now. Just going to be suspicion over everything in the future.
 

OU11

Pleighboi
Utopia Moderator
Why do the sponsors care?

And if you go to court you really won't trust anything F1 ever does again, if you think going to court will provide trust in F1 then l-m-a-o
 

OU11

Pleighboi
Utopia Moderator
I could see them demanding Masi resign as director and an inspection of the rule book and how it is handled when not followed to the letter though.
 

hayvis

Will-Gnome Member
Why do the sponsors care?

And if you go to court you really won't trust anything F1 ever does again, if you think going to court will provide trust in F1 then l-m-a-o

Why do the sponsors care whether their logo is on a world champion's car? Why do they care about the endorsement and marketing power of having the eight time undisputed statistical GOAT World Champ?

I don't think they're going to look good either way but closing ranks looks worse.
 

hayvis

Will-Gnome Member
I could see them demanding Masi resign as director and an inspection of the rule book and how it is handled when not followed to the letter though.

Then that just looks even more whiffy. I'm sure Mercedes are looking at these options and coming to the conclusion that they actually have nothing to lose by taking this all the way. Horner has flown home btw, and reports say that it can only be to get ready for a defence.
 

OU11

Pleighboi
Utopia Moderator
Why do the sponsors care whether their logo is on a world champion's car? Why do they care about the endorsement and marketing power of having the eight time undisputed statistical GOAT World Champ?

I don't think they're going to look good either way but closing ranks looks worse.

They can't have the marketing power of the 8 time undisputed GOAT World Champ. They could have the 7 time undisputed world champ but this will be disputed no matter what. And yeah, Merc and RB are equally famous this year, they lose zero money by sponsoring merc in a loss so it makes no sense. If the sponsors care about the most watched driver's shampship because they lost on the last lap of the last race they funny
 

hayvis

Will-Gnome Member
They can't have the marketing power of the 8 time undisputed GOAT World Champ. They could have the 7 time undisputed world champ but this will be disputed no matter what. And yeah, Merc and RB are equally famous this year, they lose zero money by sponsoring merc in a loss so it makes no sense. If the sponsors care about the most watched driver's shampship because they lost on the last lap of the last race they funny

It's not just the race. Hamilton is an ambassador for the various sponsors. Verstappen had absolutely NOTHING like the pull of Lewis before this race. Hamilton was all over the adverts for the sponsors on the tv stings etc... If you think that keeping on winning or letting your rival win in dodgy circumstances has no intrinsic value, I don't know what to say.

Basically this rigged race is an ole by the F1 to try to move Hamilton aside for the new guy and his star power. If you ain't pissed off by that as a sponsor you a mongaloid.
 

OU11

Pleighboi
Utopia Moderator
If the sponsors are mad enough to force legal action then F1 is already dead, that is absolute insanity.
 

hayvis

Will-Gnome Member
If the sponsors are mad enough to force legal action then F1 is already dead, that is absolute insanity.

F1 has been struggling. Now it just took a massive dump on the best season it's had in 20 years, so yes, it's dead.
 

hayvis

Will-Gnome Member
We just did it first, money talks and it will soon turn everything sacred into entertainment

Americans are the dumbest market on the planet. A lot of this shit doesn't wash in the European market. See Super League.
 

hayvis

Will-Gnome Member
You sweet summer child

No seriously. Did you see the reaction to the European Super League? What would have essentially been an American entertainment model brought into European Football. It went down like a lead shit. If F1 tries to do this shit it will lose the European market.
 

hayvis

Will-Gnome Member
Bless ur heart

What's your point though? I think I just gave a very good example of how the European market rejects the American principles that you say dominate. I think you're failing to understand that F1 are alienating the European market going down this path.
 

OU11

Pleighboi
Utopia Moderator
I think you're failing to understand you aren't better than us, you're just late. The super league is totally different and it amuses me that you're using that to declare your superiority. It's fun when we disagree because you talk shit and it's hilarious. F1 will start making moves based on tension and "what's best for tv" and it will only grow the sport to your dismay. Welcome to the 21st century, Europe.
 

hayvis

Will-Gnome Member
I think you're failing to understand you aren't better than us, you're just late. The super league is totally different and it amuses me that you're using that to declare your superiority. It's fun when we disagree because you talk shit and it's hilarious. F1 will start making moves based on tension and "what's best for tv" and it will only grow the sport to your dismay. Welcome to the 21st century, Europe.

I'm not shit talking. The Super League was a rejection of EXACTLY what you are saying - More tv games, more games with the big teams against each other, protection of the major brands etc... It is exactly what happens in America, devised by Americans and the European fans said fuck off.

If you think there's no parallel with the way in which (if you followed the European news) the way that race was won is being rejected, then I don't know what to say other than what GoBlue's saying. Europeans are just more intelligent and value different things in general. That's just a fact.
 

OU11

Pleighboi
Utopia Moderator
I'm not shit talking. The Super League was a rejection of EXACTLY what you are saying - More tv games, more games with the big teams against each other, protection of the major brands etc... It is exactly what happens in America, devised by Americans and the European fans said fuck off.

If you think there's no parallel with the way in which (if you followed the European news) the way that race was won is being rejected, then I don't know what to say other than what GoBlue's saying. Europeans are just more intelligent and value different things in general. That's just a fact.

lmao you can't read I guess. Idk what to tell you, it is inevitable so I guess just stop watching now if you don't want to see it.
 

OU11

Pleighboi
Utopia Moderator
Unless you think I'm talking about Merc/RB/Mclaren/Ferrari starting their own league I have no idea what the super league has to do with this. I guess in your mind making controversial decisions for drama is the same as starting a new league but I just don't see how they are the same. To be clear I don't think the top 4 will be starting a new league if that's where the confusion was
 

hayvis

Will-Gnome Member
lmao you can't read I guess. Idk what to tell you, it is inevitable so I guess just stop watching now if you don't want to see it.

Maybe it's inevitable, because obviously F1 is trying to break the American market. We all know that. However they are alienating European fans, and I really don't think it's a good move long term and it will take second fiddle to NASCAR anyway. Europeans honestly don't see sport in the same way. they are far less interested in the razzle dazzle and "clutch moments". It's why traditionally a lot of Americans see European sports as boring.

You can have a different opinion. That's ok. I just don't agree at all.
 

OU11

Pleighboi
Utopia Moderator
I don't think they care as long as their audience keeps growing, and it will the more drama they bring in. For every hayvis they lose they gain 10 chibobs. Hell it will run for a while, then they'll start some playoff thing that makes no sense and ruin everything you ever loved about it.
 

hayvis

Will-Gnome Member
Unless you think I'm talking about Merc/RB/Mclaren/Ferrari starting their own league I have no idea what the super league has to do with this. I guess in your mind making controversial decisions for drama is the same as starting a new league but I just don't see how they are the same. To be clear I don't think the top 4 will be starting a new league if that's where the confusion was

It's about the Americanisation of European sports by Americans. It's about trying to manufacture more "big" moments at the cost of fairness. That is what is happening in F1 and what happened in trying to form the Super League. If you can't see that parallel you're being deliberately obtuse.
 

OU11

Pleighboi
Utopia Moderator
It's about the Americanisation of European sports by Americans. It's about trying to manufacture more "big" moments at the cost of fairness. That is what is happening in F1 and what happened in trying to form the Super League. If you can't see that parallel you're being deliberately obtuse.

Like I said, I don't think the top teams will form their own league so I'm not sure how you're still confusing that point. I agree that would fail
 
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