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Sperg about Motor Racing thread
- Thread starter Hollywood
- Start date
Because he’s overrated
I just assumed he did something really dumb and dense to pull out the victory
Apparently he did do a 360 at one point.
I think they stopped 4 times and put SHARL on hards
One of my favorite things about this season is to go to reddit after the race and read about how Ferrari fucked the race every week. Apparently George started on softs and despite starting on mediums they brought Carlos in with George negating the longevity advantage of going medium first, then brought Sharl in 5 laps later.
And instead of MMS they went MMHS lol. Like if you stretched the mediums in the first stint it would seem you'd either be able to go 1 stop or 2 stop with a soft tire finish. I really don't know enough about this to be educated in how bad they are but it seems to not make any sense.
And instead of MMS they went MMHS lol. Like if you stretched the mediums in the first stint it would seem you'd either be able to go 1 stop or 2 stop with a soft tire finish. I really don't know enough about this to be educated in how bad they are but it seems to not make any sense.
hayvis
Will-Gnome Member
Imo Ferrari were fucked whichever way. Sainz got extremely fast deg on the softs and was out of it after a few laps, which was backed up by Leclerc eventually performing badly on them when he changed to them. I suspect the strategy guys gambled on the hard compound for Leclerc early simply because they knew they were fucked on the softs anyway, so although it seemed crazy, it was just desperation. Ferrari have struggled with tyre deg all season - this was a race where it really blew up in their faces.
Imo everyone is going hard at them when actually they didn't screw up as badly as other races.
Imo everyone is going hard at them when actually they didn't screw up as badly as other races.
So Ferrari's strategy today was a good one to you?
hayvis
Will-Gnome Member
Not good, but they knew that they were going to have problems with the soft compound tyres, so couldn't just follow Russell, and in desperation tried the hard compound when maybe they shouldn't have. I don't believe they would have finished higher on another strategy - this is categorically proven by the fact that Sainz was terrible towards the end on virtually the same strategy as Hamilton when Ham was the fastest guy on the track, and Leclerc was also not good on the softs.
Did Hamilton also pit with George on the first stop?
hayvis
Will-Gnome Member
Honestly man, I thought I'd give you another chance to have a conversation with, but it feels like you're just being a troll again, so I might have to call it a day. Sainz's strategy was a few laps different to Hamilton. He only had about 3 or 4 decent laps on the softs. Hamilton was blowing everything out of the water for nearly 20 laps. There is no way the Ferraris beat the Mercs on med med soft or soft med med.
I was asking a question because i didn’t know if merc boxed Hamilton at the same time as George. I read sainz was boxed with george. I also read that alpine categorically proved the hards were shit.
I mean I can’t converse with you about this because if I don’t agree with you it’s because I’m a troll. I think it’s fine if you’d rather not to be honest
hayvis
Will-Gnome Member
Alpine is not Ferrari. Ferrari thoughth they had a shot at warming up the hards because their car is the quickest to fire up tyres on the track (and highest deg as a result). Sainz boxed a couple of laps sooner than he would have because he followed George (as far as I can remember), but it made very little difference, because his soft tyres only worked for a few laps before he became a sitting duck. He would have been beaten whatever. He was basically on the same stratgey as Hamilton.
You honestly don't think you're a troll? Fucking hel....
hayvis
Will-Gnome Member
I'm not saying that Ferrari made all the right calls - I just find it funny when pubescent reddits think they know far better than strategists at a top team. They didn't get it right, but they aren't complete morons. The complete morons are those that can't work out a single reason why Ferrari might have done this strategy.
Not agreeing = trolling like always, that's your M.O. I wasn't saying they would win with correct strategy, I was saying they are continuing the theme of bad decision making that they've shown all season. I think that's where we were missing, you've agreed their strategy was incorrect but you gave the possible logic behind it which I appreciate.
I'll just agree that Sharl is terrible so we can move on.
hayvis
Will-Gnome Member
Nah - The problem I have is that you turn every position I have into black and white. I was just saying there were reasons why Ferrari did what they did. It's the same as how you've fabricated that I only like British drivers, and that Max Verstappen is overated, when I've actually said I believe him to be supremely talented.
You turn me into a characature for cheap laughs. I don't do that to you - that's why I honestly don't know if I can have a conversation with you.
I did not do those things, but I do push you when you say things that I don't see anyone else saying. They way you spoke about Max did not line up with "he's supremely talented". I hope you know that.
I actually go out of my way to not troll you because I know from the past you take it seriously and I'd actually like someone knowledgeable to discuss F1 with, but if I dare question you then I must be trolling. I constantly say I don't know what I'm talking about, I have no arrogance about my positions here especially about a sport I just started following.
Even the question about british drivers was not trolling, you only speak highly of british drivers so I was curious if that was it. I don't care if you're biased but I do want to know where your biases are if we are going to talk about F1. I did initially think you were extremely biased towards Lewis (you definitely are) but the more I watch the more I understand why. I've become a fan of Lewis as I've watched.
I think our past (6 months previous, basically before the Ukraine war) have clouded our interactions because you are reacting to my posts defensively when there is no need. I did troll you about Max when we first were having a go but I since stopped because you reacted so negatively to it. Understand going forward if I question something you say it is for information and not to make you look stupid.
I don't know how to put it any more bluntly and honestly than that so if you still have an issue in the future we can just ignore each other.
hayvis
Will-Gnome Member
Yes, I am overly defensive. I wear my heart on my sleeve and that whole Ukraine thread really upset me whether anyone intended it or not. I should get over it. I normally do in life - I'm someone who never holds grudges and can argue apologise, forgive and move on throughout my life (and very much so on here - I've made a habit of doing it for a laugh and schtick). That thread just hit a (really bad) nerve and made me angry and defensive. Motor racing and no mand sky have been the only topics I've even looked at since. I see a lot of people on here as old friends and it really does feel like I have fallen out. Obviously I speak to people from Nutopia outside of here, which is why I was interested in getting your social media - To try to get my head out of defensive butt hurt mode with you. Hopefully getting all this off my chest can do the same.
Well I think I apologized in that thread, but if I didn't I apologize because I was not careful in how I presented what I wanted to say in that thread. Especially when speaking to someone who felt so close to the issue at hand.
Yes you say that, but you also talk about him like he's an idiot and not just off the track. I'm not the only one who picked up on this, which is why every now and then it comes up. I shouldn't have done it today because on my end it's good natured ribbing and on your end it's me making a characterization of you.
hayvis
Will-Gnome Member
You don't need to apologize. Sometimes no-one is to blame when something like that happens. I know this site has a time honoured tradition for absolutely anything goes, and if I got upset, it was really on me for not realising that. I made the mistake of not opening up about it, which is stupid and very out of character to be honest. I don't normally stew on things.
In actual fact, I am absolutely 100% aware that I can be an absolute dick head, and normally have the self awareness to style this out, blow it up and laugh at myself. I think that war on top of the pandemic just gave me a sense of humour bypass for a while and I can still be a bit up and down, although in my home life I'm just about back to full mental strength (which for me is about 75%)..
Anyway, rather belatedly, I think I have realised it was probably me. It usually is. Please don't hold back on me, throughout the history of this site, I would like to think I would be the last person anyone had to tread carefully around.
I think Max Verstappen is supremely gifted. I also think he's supremely dumb. Everything I can make out about him shows him as this procotious talent that has to be handled like a child by his team. Just listen to his radio - He never works with anyone, just demands that things are fixed without any real depth of knowledge. I also think that Red Bull do a tremendous job of managing him to the top. Even if he ends up winning 10 shamps, I would still think he could have won 15 with a brain.
Well another reason I'm so hard on Ferrari in this thread is the fact that Merc and RB exist. They are so put together and do such a great jerb on race day that it makes Ferrari's issues glaringly obvious. I mean they are supposed to be with RB and Merc but their team looks so far off it's maybe a bit easier to criticize. As a newcomer to the sport I view Ferrari the same as I view Mclaren based on what I see.
hayvis
Will-Gnome Member
I think that's true of Red Bull in a strategy sense, but Merc have pulled some strategy clangers at the begining of the season particularly, admitedly most likely in desperation. Mercs pit stop times aren't great either.
But overall I think you're correct. My opinion is that it's not just strategy that they are lacking in. The whole team is weak. I think Binotto is the weakest priniciple of the three top teams, they have the weakest strategy setup, terrible reliability (hardest thing to change) and they don't have the drivers. I know I joke about Sharl being shit but I honestly don't think he's good enough to win at Ferrari. I think he's top 10 on the grid, but he's not a champion. He's always been error prone, and I think although he comes across as a bit of a nice guy, he has the most fragile personality of the top drivers - MV is a baby, but he is supremely confident and criticism definitely bounces off him, partly due to being extremely talented, partly due to being extremely stupid. I would rather be taking a chance on someone unproven than sticking with a guy who's deficiencies seem ingrained.
If I'm Ferrari, at the end of this season I would blow the entire team up and start from scratch. They have a car this year, which although unreliable, should have been good enough to make the title fight way closer than it is.
But overall I think you're correct. My opinion is that it's not just strategy that they are lacking in. The whole team is weak. I think Binotto is the weakest priniciple of the three top teams, they have the weakest strategy setup, terrible reliability (hardest thing to change) and they don't have the drivers. I know I joke about Sharl being shit but I honestly don't think he's good enough to win at Ferrari. I think he's top 10 on the grid, but he's not a champion. He's always been error prone, and I think although he comes across as a bit of a nice guy, he has the most fragile personality of the top drivers - MV is a baby, but he is supremely confident and criticism definitely bounces off him, partly due to being extremely talented, partly due to being extremely stupid. I would rather be taking a chance on someone unproven than sticking with a guy who's deficiencies seem ingrained.
If I'm Ferrari, at the end of this season I would blow the entire team up and start from scratch. They have a car this year, which although unreliable, should have been good enough to make the title fight way closer than it is.
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One reason I excuse Merc on for the early season is they were trying to figure out their car at that point. The Ferrari has arguably been the best car all season and they are going to be 3rd in the WCC with the way Merc looks now. All those experimental setups that Lewis ran had to have helped them get where they are now even if at the time it looked like they were lost. That goes to another thing you spoke about though which is culture, the Merc team has a strong culture where you can weather something like their early season, Ferrari does not. All I read about is their dysfunction, and who knows how much of it is true but you just don't hear that about RB or Merc.
And even if Sharl isn't championship quality, he still should be about 20-25 points down instead of 80. If he eliminated his mistake from a few races ago he could be winning. Those are all things the Ferrari team can control and it is setting aside their reliability problems which they're known for.
And even if Sharl isn't championship quality, he still should be about 20-25 points down instead of 80. If he eliminated his mistake from a few races ago he could be winning. Those are all things the Ferrari team can control and it is setting aside their reliability problems which they're known for.
hayvis
Will-Gnome Member
The way they are running their team at the moment, all of F1 have to be thankful that Ferrari isn't waving a massive high pressure fuel pipe around.
hayvis
Will-Gnome Member
LMAO at Piastri. The way to deal with this was quietly, even if he did want to, (and could legally) go to another team, which is questionable as Alpine is a good starting point in F1 as a good midfield car. I wonder how many people in F1 are going to see him as a team player after this? I think he's blown up his F1 career before it's even started. There's too much talent in F1 to see him as indispensible.
This has sports agents and middle men written all over it (more money to be had for them signing elsewhere). Apparently there was an August 1st option that Alpine didn't trigger, but my money is on there being as load of sub clauses that haven't been read properly anyway and that Alpine still have rights over his ass.
If Alpine do have the rights over him, I think their best move would be to let him drive in F2 for another year and see how he responds mentally to it. They can't let him on the team now, and I would suspect that even if he could go to another team, after all this they will pass now and want to do the same.
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Oscar better be really really good to pull this if his exit clause wasn't triggered. I read a post about Button doing a similar thing back in the day and eventually winning with a lot of the same team at Brawn, but obviously that should be treated as the exception more than the rule. What I've learned is that if you are talented enough everything can be smoothed over, so Oscar better hope he is talented enough
Talented enough to try to force an exit that may be blocked. Maybe the car is a downgrade but maybe the team is an upgrade at mclaren. It could be that alpine is being run very poorly behind the scenes causing Alonso to leave and now Oscar trying to avoid an open seat. Why would he do that in a car that is probably 4th best?
hayvis
Will-Gnome Member
This is good - https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/...-club-how-alpine-was-ouplayed-in-piastri-saga
It seems like a lot of spite involved and some prima donna stuff about not wanting to be loaned to Williams (which they U-turned on anyway). I mean, I get what you're saying in that Alpine doesn't seem very well managed, but isn't the best strategy to prove you're good before acting like this? It's always going to be a question mark when the big teams look at him now. I know for fact that Toto Wolf wouldn't go within a million miles of someone like that (call me out on that when he eventually goes to Merc). But seriously, Merc made Russell sit in the Williams for three years and he has the same pedigree as Piastri. Verstappen also started in a Torro Rosso.
Basically Piastri better be Schumacher or Hamilton 2.0 else he's FUCKED.
It seems like a lot of spite involved and some prima donna stuff about not wanting to be loaned to Williams (which they U-turned on anyway). I mean, I get what you're saying in that Alpine doesn't seem very well managed, but isn't the best strategy to prove you're good before acting like this? It's always going to be a question mark when the big teams look at him now. I know for fact that Toto Wolf wouldn't go within a million miles of someone like that (call me out on that when he eventually goes to Merc). But seriously, Merc made Russell sit in the Williams for three years and he has the same pedigree as Piastri. Verstappen also started in a Torro Rosso.
Basically Piastri better be Schumacher or Hamilton 2.0 else he's FUCKED.
Oh yeah, he’s an idiot especially with there only being 20 seats in F1. You take that seat and make the most of it for a few years. That’s very obvious though so maybe he’s been trying to find a way out for a while due to some conflict with the team or a team member.
