fonzilla
Well-Known Member
It means Case Keenam was a system QB just like Andre. Had Case been born 15 yrs earlier he might have won a Heisman.
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Beardown About...Rose Bowl #0
- Thread starter gilstein21
- Start date
Clintmartian
Stringer Bell
Someone didn't watch him play in the NFL last year...
coogrfan
Well-Known Member
Every player is to some degree a product of the system their team runs. The fact remains that Keenum threw for more yards and more tds than any other player in Div I history.
fonzilla
Well-Known Member
The great ones transcend schemes. Andrew Luck could have been an effective Spread Option QB too. AP could have been a wingman on a triple option team... Calvin Johnson had a midget QB throwing to him at GA TECH.
coogrfan
Well-Known Member
Would Vince Young, Tebow or Vick have been as successful in an Air Raid offense? Would Leinart have a Heisman if he hadn't been surrounded by the best talent in cfb? Would anybody know who Johnny Manziel was if Sumlin and Kingsbury hadn't installed the same offense Keenum ran at UH?
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fonzilla
Well-Known Member
Fuck no. Those are great college players but shitty pros. I think Mike Evans made Johnny futbol more then the other way around. Fuck that Rose Bowl USC v Tejas was the best game I ever saw.
Funny considering for the last half of last season Evans had only 26 receptions as opposed to 43 in the first seven games. Receptions by Evans accounted for less than 25% of completed passes by Johnny and 33% of Yards and all season he caught 32% of Manziels TD passes.
@Brick called LSU a non-mong offense before redacting? LSU is the very epitome of the mong offense GTFO, boy. They would have won like every national championship this decade if they didn't have a mong offense.
LSU has averaged Top 5 recruiting classes for a fucking decade and here are their offensive rankings for the last 5 years:
2013 - 32
2012 - 88
2011 - 57
2010 - 81
2009 - 102
With the raw physical talent LSU has, I literally could go be their offensive coordinator and do better than that. They always have such a talent advantage of 90% of the teams they play and they still dick the dog.
To me doe, the trog-king conference of mong offenses is surprisingly not the Big 10 like most people believe. I think there are some great offensive minds in the Big 10 that keep things fresh. I think the ACC is top to bottom the mong offense king. I tried to watch North Carolina play Virginia once and it was like a competition to see how many fullbacks they would never utilize until trying to throw them an ill advised swing pass near the goalline.
LSU has averaged Top 5 recruiting classes for a fucking decade and here are their offensive rankings for the last 5 years:
2013 - 32
2012 - 88
2011 - 57
2010 - 81
2009 - 102
With the raw physical talent LSU has, I literally could go be their offensive coordinator and do better than that. They always have such a talent advantage of 90% of the teams they play and they still dick the dog.
To me doe, the trog-king conference of mong offenses is surprisingly not the Big 10 like most people believe. I think there are some great offensive minds in the Big 10 that keep things fresh. I think the ACC is top to bottom the mong offense king. I tried to watch North Carolina play Virginia once and it was like a competition to see how many fullbacks they would never utilize until trying to throw them an ill advised swing pass near the goalline.
I didn't even watch CFB last year because this sport blows, so I shouldn't talk about 2013, did they hire someone new?
Don't trog at me, boy. If you can explain to me how a team with top-5 recruiting classes averages offensive rankings like those shown above can be defined as "non-mong" than I'd love to hear it.
Don't trog at me, boy. If you can explain to me how a team with top-5 recruiting classes averages offensive rankings like those shown above can be defined as "non-mong" than I'd love to hear it.
Yeah, Cam Cameron. Their offense was pretty good last year, enjoyable to watch.
bjc
Butt Naked Wonda
Hell, football outsiders (since we're gonna sperg about statistics) has the following LSU offensive rankings:
LSU OFEI - 5th (Texas A&M 1st)
LSU Offensive S&P+ - 13th (FSU 1st)
To me that definitely looks like a mong offense to me. Don't get wrapped up in numbers. I'm talking about the transition they underwent with Cam Cameron.
Nearly every description of a fucking mong offense could be applied to a multitude of shitty spread offenses.
LSU OFEI - 5th (Texas A&M 1st)
LSU Offensive S&P+ - 13th (FSU 1st)
To me that definitely looks like a mong offense to me. Don't get wrapped up in numbers. I'm talking about the transition they underwent with Cam Cameron.
Nearly every description of a fucking mong offense could be applied to a multitude of shitty spread offenses.
bjc
Butt Naked Wonda
See above. They did hire someone new and he made them a respectable offense (and a good one IMO).
When a spread team fails I never hear about MONG OFFENSE, and that's kind of what I'm trying to get at. I take offense to this notion that teams lose games squarely on shitty offenses/coordinators. Come on bruh.
If you're only talking about 2012 and before, then I definitely agree that LSU's offense was an abortion of an offense at best.
Well fuck I didn't know they switched coordinators, so throw 2013 out if you want. I stand by them being the mong-kings before that time. Nobody did less with more.
As for "spread" mong offense, I say Texas is a great example, if you can even consider them truly spread. They don't even know what they are doing. No identity spread offenses are just as bad. I don't just trog at under center offenses.
Denver's "spread" offense with Tebow was the all time king of mong-offenses IMO. If someone with half a brain had been in charge, they wouldn't have been running zone read into 9 man fronts the entire game. The fact that it remotely "worked" was a testament to how good the Broncos line was a run blocking + Mcgahee breaking tackles and making people miss. Just imagine if, like an actual developed offense, they had complimentary plays to punish the defense for putting 9 men in the box. It would have been unstoppable for most behind the times NFL D-coordinators. The worst part is seeing how well bubble/slip screens worked with the same receivers when Manning came in. My God, DT would have had so many touchdowns on screen passes with 9 men in the box to stop the "Tebow offense." I can count on one hand how many times Denver threw screen passes in those situations with Tebow. FUUUUUUU.
As for "spread" mong offense, I say Texas is a great example, if you can even consider them truly spread. They don't even know what they are doing. No identity spread offenses are just as bad. I don't just trog at under center offenses.
Denver's "spread" offense with Tebow was the all time king of mong-offenses IMO. If someone with half a brain had been in charge, they wouldn't have been running zone read into 9 man fronts the entire game. The fact that it remotely "worked" was a testament to how good the Broncos line was a run blocking + Mcgahee breaking tackles and making people miss. Just imagine if, like an actual developed offense, they had complimentary plays to punish the defense for putting 9 men in the box. It would have been unstoppable for most behind the times NFL D-coordinators. The worst part is seeing how well bubble/slip screens worked with the same receivers when Manning came in. My God, DT would have had so many touchdowns on screen passes with 9 men in the box to stop the "Tebow offense." I can count on one hand how many times Denver threw screen passes in those situations with Tebow. FUUUUUUU.
redandblack
Member
Had to post cause I found it today..the best college gameday intro song:
PSUEagle
Well-Known Member
There's a lot of bad offenses out there and a lot of mediocre coordinators (on both sides). The reality is that a lot of guys in the coaching profession aren't that smart: they're fucking PE majors who would either be selling insurance or performing manual labor if DI/NFL football wasn't so damn lucrative. You've got some guys who are absolutely brilliant (Mike Leach comes to mind) while on the other hand you have clowns like Dabo who basically recruit and roll the ball out at practice.
The thing is, though, X&O's in general are incredibly overrated by fans when it comes to being a HC. It's more important to be able to lead men, organize, and set a vision/tone for your program. That's where a guy like Jimbo is an excellent coach: he's not a great offensive mind (in fact, I've always hated his "system") who really should hire a good OC and get the fuck out of the way, but he more than makes up for it by consistently killing it in recruiting, managing alumni relations, identifying quality staff members/replacements when they leave, and making sure there is a consistent philosophy in place in terms of how the program will look on offense, defense, special teams, and strength and conditioning.
As far as this whole "mong" offense thing, again, there's a lot of mediocre coordinators out there running a lot of different systems. I reject the notion though that judging someone solely on YPG and PPG is an accurate reflection of how "good" or "bad" a system is. It simply doesn't account for a team's individual talent level, pace, and how a team is trying to win games in general. Let's take LSU for instance: they were an extremely effective unit on that side of the ball because they finally had a good coordinator calling the shots. They sucked from 2008-2012 because they had a guy in Gary Crowton who has a long history of offenses getting worse under him (see the beginning of his tenures at BYU and Oregon) and an OL coach in Greg Studrawa who never should have been in that spot to begin with (Steve Kragthorpe had to be an asshole and go get cancer). I don't care if they "only" ranked 32nd: watch the fucking games. A guy like Les Miles is going to rein his offense in against a team like Florida (17-6 win) because the object of the game is to win, not to score as many fucking points as you can at the expense of your defense (not to mention increasing the risk of turnovers when again, there's no need to). When the Tigers played high powered teams like Georgia, Auburn, and Texas A&M they were very effective and put up plenty of points.
I've also seen some really good systems and coaches over the years that haven't had the truly gaudy statistics that makes the casual trog that watches CFB take notice. I love what Bill Lazor did at UVA from 2010-2012 when you consider that the Cavs hadn't had an offense that ranked outside the 100's since 2005. He gets there and they are in the high 30's-40's (don't remember the exact numbers and don't care to look). He ran a good system that did a great job of using motion and different formations that really masked a very limited skill position corps (no UVA skill guys drafted during his tenure). He leaves and they go back to sucking ass under Steve Fairchild. I'm sure that's not good enough for Brock though since they weren't lighting up the scoreboard and running 80 snaps a game like Oregon
I think I need to start an X&O's thread at some point...
The thing is, though, X&O's in general are incredibly overrated by fans when it comes to being a HC. It's more important to be able to lead men, organize, and set a vision/tone for your program. That's where a guy like Jimbo is an excellent coach: he's not a great offensive mind (in fact, I've always hated his "system") who really should hire a good OC and get the fuck out of the way, but he more than makes up for it by consistently killing it in recruiting, managing alumni relations, identifying quality staff members/replacements when they leave, and making sure there is a consistent philosophy in place in terms of how the program will look on offense, defense, special teams, and strength and conditioning.
As far as this whole "mong" offense thing, again, there's a lot of mediocre coordinators out there running a lot of different systems. I reject the notion though that judging someone solely on YPG and PPG is an accurate reflection of how "good" or "bad" a system is. It simply doesn't account for a team's individual talent level, pace, and how a team is trying to win games in general. Let's take LSU for instance: they were an extremely effective unit on that side of the ball because they finally had a good coordinator calling the shots. They sucked from 2008-2012 because they had a guy in Gary Crowton who has a long history of offenses getting worse under him (see the beginning of his tenures at BYU and Oregon) and an OL coach in Greg Studrawa who never should have been in that spot to begin with (Steve Kragthorpe had to be an asshole and go get cancer). I don't care if they "only" ranked 32nd: watch the fucking games. A guy like Les Miles is going to rein his offense in against a team like Florida (17-6 win) because the object of the game is to win, not to score as many fucking points as you can at the expense of your defense (not to mention increasing the risk of turnovers when again, there's no need to). When the Tigers played high powered teams like Georgia, Auburn, and Texas A&M they were very effective and put up plenty of points.
I've also seen some really good systems and coaches over the years that haven't had the truly gaudy statistics that makes the casual trog that watches CFB take notice. I love what Bill Lazor did at UVA from 2010-2012 when you consider that the Cavs hadn't had an offense that ranked outside the 100's since 2005. He gets there and they are in the high 30's-40's (don't remember the exact numbers and don't care to look). He ran a good system that did a great job of using motion and different formations that really masked a very limited skill position corps (no UVA skill guys drafted during his tenure). He leaves and they go back to sucking ass under Steve Fairchild. I'm sure that's not good enough for Brock though since they weren't lighting up the scoreboard and running 80 snaps a game like Oregon
I think I need to start an X&O's thread at some point...
Great point about LSU. Their talent has been ridiculous the past 10 years, but steadily under Les Miles their offense got worse every year until they hired Cam Cameron. As an Arkansas fan I knew we had a chance even though the talent gap was usually wide against the Bayou Bengals.
When it comes to HCs does anyone think Les Miles is a better HC than Bobby Petrino? Petrino is a colossal Type A asshole, but he has a system and demands that everyone from the OC to the guy handing out the equipment is accountable. Arkansas goes from the Top 5 to bottom of the SEC after he was fired when Coach Smile/John L Smith was hired as a band-aid and the inmates ran the asylum.
When it comes to HCs does anyone think Les Miles is a better HC than Bobby Petrino? Petrino is a colossal Type A asshole, but he has a system and demands that everyone from the OC to the guy handing out the equipment is accountable. Arkansas goes from the Top 5 to bottom of the SEC after he was fired when Coach Smile/John L Smith was hired as a band-aid and the inmates ran the asylum.
I think Les Miles is a good coach, but is also borderline retarded and would do well to delegate all clock management decisions (if he hasn't already). I think that's where PSUEagle is right on, there is much more to coaching than Xs and Os and Miles excels at all the program stuff and it shows in that they are a consistently good team.
Lightningwar
Administrator
I think Petrino is probably the better HC. But he is also an assclown that cant get out of his own way.
The same thing happened at Louisville after Petrino left for the Falcons. Petrino has a reputation of recruiting a lot of troublesome guys that the new coaches have no idea how to control.
John L. Smith was also an awful coach.
DeadMan
aka spiker or DeadMong
I think Les is a great quote and no doubt he is a good recruiter. However, IMO LSU these days recruits itself and I think they win more in spite of Les then because of him.
fsuprime
Well-Known Member
"Incoming recruits who do not have a 2.3 gpa or better must redshirt their freshmen year."
new rule for NCAA 2016
good for @Wooly
bad for
??
I tend to think this will just cause more GPA inflation @Travis7401 at a H.S. level
new rule for NCAA 2016
good for @Wooly
bad for
??
I tend to think this will just cause more GPA inflation @Travis7401 at a H.S. level
bjc
Butt Naked Wonda
Tl;Dr mong post.There's a lot of bad offenses out there and a lot of mediocre coordinators (on both sides). The reality is that a lot of guys in the coaching profession aren't that smart: they're fucking PE majors who would either be selling insurance or performing manual labor if DI/NFL football wasn't so damn lucrative. You've got some guys who are absolutely brilliant (Mike Leach comes to mind) while on the other hand you have clowns like Dabo who basically recruit and roll the ball out at practice.
The thing is, though, X&O's in general are incredibly overrated by fans when it comes to being a HC. It's more important to be able to lead men, organize, and set a vision/tone for your program. That's where a guy like Jimbo is an excellent coach: he's not a great offensive mind (in fact, I've always hated his "system") who really should hire a good OC and get the fuck out of the way, but he more than makes up for it by consistently killing it in recruiting, managing alumni relations, identifying quality staff members/replacements when they leave, and making sure there is a consistent philosophy in place in terms of how the program will look on offense, defense, special teams, and strength and conditioning.
As far as this whole "mong" offense thing, again, there's a lot of mediocre coordinators out there running a lot of different systems. I reject the notion though that judging someone solely on YPG and PPG is an accurate reflection of how "good" or "bad" a system is. It simply doesn't account for a team's individual talent level, pace, and how a team is trying to win games in general. Let's take LSU for instance: they were an extremely effective unit on that side of the ball because they finally had a good coordinator calling the shots. They sucked from 2008-2012 because they had a guy in Gary Crowton who has a long history of offenses getting worse under him (see the beginning of his tenures at BYU and Oregon) and an OL coach in Greg Studrawa who never should have been in that spot to begin with (Steve Kragthorpe had to be an asshole and go get cancer). I don't care if they "only" ranked 32nd: watch the fucking games. A guy like Les Miles is going to rein his offense in against a team like Florida (17-6 win) because the object of the game is to win, not to score as many fucking points as you can at the expense of your defense (not to mention increasing the risk of turnovers when again, there's no need to). When the Tigers played high powered teams like Georgia, Auburn, and Texas A&M they were very effective and put up plenty of points.
I've also seen some really good systems and coaches over the years that haven't had the truly gaudy statistics that makes the casual trog that watches CFB take notice. I love what Bill Lazor did at UVA from 2010-2012 when you consider that the Cavs hadn't had an offense that ranked outside the 100's since 2005. He gets there and they are in the high 30's-40's (don't remember the exact numbers and don't care to look). He ran a good system that did a great job of using motion and different formations that really masked a very limited skill position corps (no UVA skill guys drafted during his tenure). He leaves and they go back to sucking ass under Steve Fairchild. I'm sure that's not good enough for Brock though since they weren't lighting up the scoreboard and running 80 snaps a game like Oregon
I think I need to start an X&O's thread at some point...
goblue96
Disney and Curling Expert
JSU Zack
How do I IT?
This GIF is synced with the video above. Even better than the actual video.
PSUEagle
Well-Known Member
I love Petrino as an offensive mind (top 5 guy in mind), but I do find him lacking in several areas as a head coach:
-Has a tendency to ignore character in favor of talent, which has lead to the issues you've seen at Louisville and Arkansas once he left.
-Emphasizes his offense at the expense of his defense/special teams: look at the coordinators he's hired on the other side of the ball over the years: Mike Cassity (average at best), Wily Robinson (lol), Nick Holt (ultimate mong, just ask UW/USC fans), and now Todd Grantham (no one did less with more at UGA). He puts his best athletes on offense and tries to outscore people, which is great when you're putting 50 up on average/bad teams, but not so great when you're playing good teams.
-Is a prick to work for, which negatively effects the quality of coaches he is able to attract (you'll just have to trust me on this one).
It's an interesting discussion as to how well he would do at an LSU/Texas/Florida/USC (basically a Top 10 type school), but I'm not convinced he would be killing everyone like his most ardent supporters believe. For instance, there are a ton of Miami fans that think he would turn them into the 80's 'Canes if he took over for Golden, but again, I'm not convinced. Incredible offensive mind (would be one of five guys I'd love to sit down and talk ball with) but a great head coach that does not make.
As for Les Miles, I think a lot of the heat he takes is because he just comes across as goofy. You don't have the success he's had and not know what you're doing on some level, though. Everyone loves Nick Saban, but Miles has held his own against him in their annual matchups. And you can't say that LSU out talents Alabama, so that argument doesn't fly.
If you want some examples of guys who consistently do more with less, I'd go with coaches like Paul Rhodes, Gary Patterson, Mike MacIntyre, Kirk Ferentz, and Mark Dantonio to name several. None of them ever get big time recruits, but all of them have been able to establish consistent programs that win by developing lesser talent and coaching the hell out of them.
Clintmartian
Stringer Bell
Coach Pete taking UW to the national championship in 4 years.
BasinBictory
OUT with the GOUT
The coaching profession is one that fascinates me as an outside observer. I have often wondered how mediocre/bad coaches keep on getting jobs when in any other profession, they'd have long since been run out of the business and been forced to try their luck at some other endeavor.
I guess the answer is simply that 1)it's a big fraternity with the attendant "who-you-know" is much more important than the "what-you-know," 2)there simply aren't a whole lot of people willing to coach as a profession where you are basically living a nomadic existence, moving from city to city every few years and uprooting your wife and kids to do so every time.
Also, what kind of compensation do coaches (on average) make? My guess is that, for the amount of effort put forth, not a whole heck of a lot. Sure, superstar corches like Saban and Meyer make several million a year, but I imagine the profession as a whole is like the acting profession - for every Hollywood A-lister, there's a thousand dreamers scrabbling for peanuts and forced to wait tables and/or give $20 blowjobs to make ends meet.
I guess the answer is simply that 1)it's a big fraternity with the attendant "who-you-know" is much more important than the "what-you-know," 2)there simply aren't a whole lot of people willing to coach as a profession where you are basically living a nomadic existence, moving from city to city every few years and uprooting your wife and kids to do so every time.
Also, what kind of compensation do coaches (on average) make? My guess is that, for the amount of effort put forth, not a whole heck of a lot. Sure, superstar corches like Saban and Meyer make several million a year, but I imagine the profession as a whole is like the acting profession - for every Hollywood A-lister, there's a thousand dreamers scrabbling for peanuts and forced to wait tables and/or give $20 blowjobs to make ends meet.
The lowest paid D-1 HC makes $375,000. As for assistants, it depends what level. I'd imagine D-1 guys aren't hurting too bad but I know Leach had to sleep in the dorms and was making like $15,000 when he first started at the NAIA level and stuff like that.
gilstein21
Well-Known Member
Mike Leach reddit AMA. Some good ones in here
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/265mel/i_am_head_football_coach_and_nyt_best_selling/
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/265mel/i_am_head_football_coach_and_nyt_best_selling/
gilstein21
Well-Known Member
ya, that was one of my favorite ones. I also liked his all-star coaching staff.
Gotta love the Pirate.
gilstein21
Well-Known Member
miss that combo so much
Rutgers Mike
Dr. Sad
Didn't Gottfried have a stroke?
gilstein21
Well-Known Member
think so, if not a couple of them. Seems like he was still announcing after it happened, but he wasn't the same.
doh
THANK YOU Dermott McHeshi
Interesting story on Wyoming moving down to FCS...
http://www.laramieboomerang.com/art...679e441ccad256342987.txt#.U2jLhKUDFRo.twitter
I always thought they're the most screwed team that was in a good situation during conference shuffling. Laramie is terrible to get to. Zero recruiting base. No one in their area/no TV sets added with them in the conference. They're in serious trouble. Seems like short term it'd be dumb to go to FCS but maybe long-term it would be smart.
http://www.laramieboomerang.com/art...679e441ccad256342987.txt#.U2jLhKUDFRo.twitter
I always thought they're the most screwed team that was in a good situation during conference shuffling. Laramie is terrible to get to. Zero recruiting base. No one in their area/no TV sets added with them in the conference. They're in serious trouble. Seems like short term it'd be dumb to go to FCS but maybe long-term it would be smart.
gilstein21
Well-Known Member
I always thought Idaho was an even worse situation.
doh
THANK YOU Dermott McHeshi
Idaho is in a much worse situation in some ways. I think for them the biggest problem is the lack of non-Power 5 teams on the west coast. Tons of California schools that could be real good at football dropped the sport in the late 80s/90s that would've made a good WAC or maybe another conference.
Idaho will always be the second fiddle in their home state, has a god awful facility (they've had some huge renovations to Wyoming's stadium at least), zero tradition, zero recruiting base, have to travel a ton for conference… it's not good. They used to at least have an easy trip to Washington State every year but they don't do that anymore.
At least Wyoming gets some decent home OOC games like Nebraska, Texas recently.
Idaho will always be the second fiddle in their home state, has a god awful facility (they've had some huge renovations to Wyoming's stadium at least), zero tradition, zero recruiting base, have to travel a ton for conference… it's not good. They used to at least have an easy trip to Washington State every year but they don't do that anymore.
At least Wyoming gets some decent home OOC games like Nebraska, Texas recently.