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Principles of Pro Style Offenses

I've been experimenting on Madden 16 a lot lately. Went through a few iterations of what I consider an air raid offense through a west coast frame of mind.

I originally started with a core group of formations - Leach's dozen or so sets (10/11/20 personnel). I was able to go really fast with this and get good numbers in the air and on the ground. Dropping 40 with the Saints is pretty easy against the CPU - even on All-Madden with difficult sliders.

I made a second version of the playbook with a focus on 21/11 personnel. The results were... interesting. By going under center with a fullback, like Bill Walsh, I saw a larger variety of fronts, which made t more difficult to run the ball. Even with Jalston Fowler lead blocking (85 OVR), I could never get to the second level. The passing game was also more difficult thanks to different timing on the passes and slower backs and tight ends running the routes. Averaged sub-30 PPG.

The third version - as of last night - is an Air Raid/WCO using Dennis Erickson's one back sets plus bunch & empty. The run game is still not what I would like - 3.5 YPG compared to 6 or 7 from the gun.

This got me to thinking, as defenses transition from a wrecking crew mindset and move to finesse defenses, the need for a great nickel corner is important. A guy that can fly to the ball, shed blocks, and still cover intermediate passes is ideal, but many teams don't have that. Normally, a team is lucky to have three good guys in their secondary, but FIVE is a tall order. That's why I think the spread is wrecking people these days. Schemes can only carry you so far; you need great alley players.
 
I've been experimenting on Madden 16 a lot lately. Went through a few iterations of what I consider an air raid offense through a west coast frame of mind.

I originally started with a core group of formations - Leach's dozen or so sets (10/11/20 personnel). I was able to go really fast with this and get good numbers in the air and on the ground. Dropping 40 with the Saints is pretty easy against the CPU - even on All-Madden with difficult sliders.

I made a second version of the playbook with a focus on 21/11 personnel. The results were... interesting. By going under center with a fullback, like Bill Walsh, I saw a larger variety of fronts, which made t more difficult to run the ball. Even with Jalston Fowler lead blocking (85 OVR), I could never get to the second level. The passing game was also more difficult thanks to different timing on the passes and slower backs and tight ends running the routes. Averaged sub-30 PPG.

The third version - as of last night - is an Air Raid/WCO using Dennis Erickson's one back sets plus bunch & empty. The run game is still not what I would like - 3.5 YPG compared to 6 or 7 from the gun.

This got me to thinking, as defenses transition from a wrecking crew mindset and move to finesse defenses, the need for a great nickel corner is important. A guy that can fly to the ball, shed blocks, and still cover intermediate passes is ideal, but many teams don't have that. Normally, a team is lucky to have three good guys in their secondary, but FIVE is a tall order. That's why I think the spread is wrecking people these days. Schemes can only carry you so far; you need great alley players.
I think your correct in that you have to match personnel. When you say more finesse defenses I assume you me smaller defenders. Which I agree its hard to have 3 battering rams and LB when you going against 11 personnel all game, which I consider the new age TE's to be just slower better blocking wr's. So I agree that you need more hybrid defensive players to defend more hybrid offensive players.

I think in general offenses just operate better in space(passing and running). To me offenses look to put their players in space and defenses through numbers and play calling look to restrict that space. In theory the spread doesn't really give you a numbers advantage any more then tight aligned formations. However, everything being equal its easier to make a tackle on a defender in phone booth rather then out in space. So, the unblocked defender vs the spread or a tight iformation can be in the same position but the tackle can be harder vs the spread because there is just more room to maneuver for the ball carrier in the spread.

I believe players like Cam Chancelor a safey, and LB's like Thomas Davis are the key to successful defenses now and into the future. These players can help tip the power back to the defense. They are fast enough to plays zones down the seam, and big enough to dominate slots and TE's on the LOS.
 
I think the key to everything on offense is understanding the basics of algebra & geometry. Like you mentioned, tackling in space is an art. Even if compressed sets are used, it's best to deploy players equally across the field - vertically and horizontally.

Mix in some tempo and a sound game plan, and the defense will beg for mercy by the time the 3rd quarter ends.
 

guardman23

Well-Known Member
I think the key to everything on offense is understanding the basics of algebra & geometry. Like you mentioned, tackling in space is an art. Even if compressed sets are used, it's best to deploy players equally across the field - vertically and horizontally.

Mix in some tempo and a sound game plan, and the defense will beg for mercy by the time the 3rd quarter ends.
Do you go by the run vs 2 high throw vs 1 high method
 
Do you go by the run vs 2 high throw vs 1 high method
I not you didn't quote me but I wanted to reply.

I use to be a strict follower of this rule. However, what I found is people can basically dictate to you whether your going to pass or run the whole game. I'm naturally a ground and pound guy. What happens when someone says they are going to stay in single high the whole game? He forces me to fight left handed.

Or if your natrually a guy who is better at the pass what if I go to high all game long? Do you have the patience, will, skill, ect to run all game long. Even if you are, like I said i'm forcing you to fight left handed. If your the pats, saints, or packers and all I have to do to take the ball out of your qb hand is to say in two high, I take my chances with you running. Also I have no problem as defense people trying to pass on my single cover 3 base defense.

You can run on single high defenses in prostyle offense. Generally speaking your looking to run off tack and if you can get to the edge even better. The key is making sure the unblocked defender is as far away as possible.

 
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So vs 1 high run away from the down safety in the box
Sort of. (also I edit my this post with a pic)



This isn't the best example but i just did this in paint in like 5 min. In theory you run to the left everyone can be picked up, the guy in position to make the tackle is all the way on the right hash who has to cross all that field to to get to the back. That's why I said off tackle and even better outside. The farther away you can run from that guy the better. That guy is not always the safety and he could even be aligned tighter to and closer to the box(which goes from the last lineman/te on the los up to about 8 yrds.

Another tip off the topic technically this would mathematically be the same as two high because you have two defenders outside of the box. This would not be the case if the unblocked defender was aligned behind of the olb. Also the stand up de on the left is the box because of the way EA programs the run. IRL You could possibly run to the right and leave him behind just the like the safety in the example. But it wouldn't be a good idea because they outnumber to the right but I digress.

Lastly in this example it would be tough to run outside or off tackle to the left because they have outleveraged you. Basically you want to run to open gaps in the defense. In the example on the left the c gap closed by a stand up DE(so you can't get outside). The b gap is closed by the DT. So by alignment the defense(smartly) is forces closer to that unblocked defender. You have the A gaps but you can see that makes the job of the unblocked defender way easier to get to the ball carrier then it would if that DE would have left the c cap open to run to.
 
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The two or one high rule is more of a guideline than a rule of thumb, especially in a non-spread offense.

It's all about math. If you want to run against an eight man box, you have to add a man somewhere to even things up. Teams do this by: A) Adding a blocker, B) Pulling a guard, or C) Optioning a defender.

The reason why the zone read works against single high defenses is because it tips the numbers back to the offense. An even split is typically a win for the offense because the defense's guy that makes it even is often not play side.

When you look at the defense, COUNT! The safety counting rule is predicated on the defense covering all of your receivers, but if you have a tight end or fullback, it's difficult to get his defender's intentions.
 

guardman23

Well-Known Member
Think I'm gonna play some old NCAA games when you could run a true pro style offense I think 12 was the last decent one 04 is great but I gotta find a memory card for the ps2
 

LEGEND

Well-Known Member
I'm up to 38 formations now... My offense is totally different from where it started. I like the simplicity of it.

I have 6-8 plays per formation. I can call from 5-6 plays from one formation at the LOS. With my audibles I have a wealth of stuff I can run hurry up!

I try not to duplicate any plays... For instance... Slot & Slot flex I have 4 total runs.

Slot: Stretch & slam
Slot flex; I have trap & toss


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The two or one high rule is more of a guideline than a rule of thumb, especially in a non-spread offense.

It's all about math. If you want to run against an eight man box, you have to add a man somewhere to even things up. Teams do this by: A) Adding a blocker, B) Pulling a guard, or C) Optioning a defender.

The reason why the zone read works against single high defenses is because it tips the numbers back to the offense. An even split is typically a win for the offense because the defense's guy that makes it even is often not play side.

When you look at the defense, COUNT! The safety counting rule is predicated on the defense covering all of your receivers, but if you have a tight end or fullback, it's difficult to get his defender's intentions.
Another thing about the 1 high 2 high rule is, I feel it makes more sense for running then passing(Especially for a prostyle offense). The reason I say this is in the run game you have a basic mathematical advantage in the box. However, in the passing game once the ball is snapped its still the same amount of people in coverage(just located differently).

I know people will say now you have single coverage on the outside but, to me that is also a little overrated. Yea you have single coverage on the outside but how can you really take advantage of that? By, chucking bombs outside or throwing back shoulder all day? To me unless you have a randy moss or calvin Johnson type throwing to and outside wide rieciever down the sideline is always going to be a low percentage throw against zone coverage. There his a flat defender underneath and you can't break inside because if you do you are no longer taking advantage of the one on one anymore. All you have is the streak and back shoulders.

Even team like the Jags who don't have good corners stay in cover 3 one high all game vs pretty much any team. Rarely do teams consistently take advantage of one on one throws to the outside. Then's their is the reality of videogame football and especially ncaa 14. In this game the wr/db interaction doesn't allow the wr to really make plays on the outside unless he is just way faster. And with cushion I can put bad cb's on star wr and they won't beat me consistently one on one on the outside in zone. In madden 16 especially pre patch with the aggressive catch that may be a little differen't but as I said earlier its still a low percentage throw and irl they complete that a lot less.

That's why if I'm running prostyle I don't use that rule much anymore unless I get 2 high and want to run. If you give me 2 high all game I will run until you get out of it.
 

JSU Zack

How do I IT?
Another thing about the 1 high 2 high rule is, I feel it makes more sense for running then passing(Especially for a prostyle offense). The reason I say this is in the run game you have a basic mathematical advantage in the box. However, in the passing game once the ball is snapped its still the same amount of people in coverage(just located differently).

I know people will say now you have single coverage on the outside but, to me that is also a little overrated. Yea you have single coverage on the outside but how can you really take advantage of that? By, chucking bombs outside or throwing back shoulder all day? To me unless you have a randy moss or calvin Johnson type throwing to and outside wide rieciever down the sideline is always going to be a low percentage throw against zone coverage. There his a flat defender underneath and you can't break inside because if you do you are no longer taking advantage of the one on one anymore. All you have is the streak and back shoulders.

Even team like the Jags who don't have good corners stay in cover 3 one high all game vs pretty much any team. Rarely do teams consistently take advantage of one on one throws to the outside. Then's their is the reality of videogame football and especially ncaa 14. In this game the wr/db interaction doesn't allow the wr to really make plays on the outside unless he is just way faster. And with cushion I can put bad cb's on star wr and they won't beat me consistently one on one on the outside in zone. In madden 16 especially pre patch with the aggressive catch that may be a little differen't but as I said earlier its still a low percentage throw and irl they complete that a lot less.

That's why if I'm running prostyle I don't use that rule much anymore unless I get 2 high and want to run. If you give me 2 high all game I will run until you get out of it.
You have other options than fades & corners. Double post concepts, dagger, etc. can attack the middle safety.
 
You have other options than fades & corners. Double post concepts, dagger, etc. can attack the middle safety.
Yea but, imo once you start running those type of routes you are no longer taking advantage of the one on one match up. At that point you just running zone beating routes which have no advantage over zone beating routes vs 2 high.
 

Atmore

Active Member
How do you guys use slide protection from under center? I just haven't found what consistently works. It seems 3man fronts give the C and G fits also. Either they run straight in unblocked or give up leverage to quick. Even keeping my RB in to block doesn't help sometimes.

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Craig7835

Well-Known Member
The more I look at that Spacing video I posted, that play reminds of the Tight I-Form/PA Rollout play from NCAA 2010 because I would always use the Dual HB package & motion the RB over running the wheel route & hike before he sets. You talk about a man coverage beater
 
How do you guys use slide protection from under center? I just haven't found what consistently works. It seems 3man fronts give the C and G fits also. Either they run straight in unblocked or give up leverage to quick. Even keeping my RB in to block doesn't help sometimes.

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Best bet is to have a quick audible to some sort of rollout play.
 
How do you guys use slide protection from under center? I just haven't found what consistently works. It seems 3man fronts give the C and G fits also. Either they run straight in unblocked or give up leverage to quick. Even keeping my RB in to block doesn't help sometimes.

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Best bet is to have a quick audible to some sort of rollout play.
 

LEGEND

Well-Known Member
How do you guys use slide protection from under center? I just haven't found what consistently works. It seems 3man fronts give the C and G fits also. Either they run straight in unblocked or give up leverage to quick. Even keeping my RB in to block doesn't help sometimes.

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Yeah haven't figured that out either... Pinching the line seems to work best for me! I generally don't have problems against users.. It's the cpu that gives me fits!

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LEGEND

Well-Known Member
Changed up my Dennis Erickson Oneback scheme. Erickson likes to run trips to the boundary on the hash... I've noticed in game... That twins or dbl TE sets work well on the hash. Those are sets he preferred in the middle of the field.

Once I'm in between the hashes... I prefer to run trips and 4 wide sets. It's working much better for me this way. I've also added some 5 wide to the scheme.... Though I rarely use it... It's been very effective when I have!

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LEGEND

Well-Known Member
It's taken some time for me to realize... that some of my concepts and plays don't actually work!

They're not completely broken... But they are seriously flawed. Against the Cpu most worked... But versus users... That was a totally different story! I've come to notice that some man beaters don't actually beat man coverages!

Same with some plays that are suppose to beat zone! Especially in dynasties where the sliders are set extremely high in the Cpu's favor.

I noticed that in 11 personnel... that usually means only 1 Wr of the 3 Will get separation... Against man coverage. Usually the others will be mirrored. That's led me to once again revamp my entire play book!

This time around... I've added Bill Walsh's WCO concepts mixed with some variations of the coaches in his family tree. I've also added a bit of I formation & flex option to utilize my athletic QB's.

Have yet to really face a user... Tested my 1st draft against Akecheta... But it's changed some since then. We'll see how it goes?




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LEGEND

Well-Known Member
Been using a lot of I formation lately... Really like going off grid! In fact I've ditched most of my spread 11 personnel. Running and old school two back system.

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LEGEND

Well-Known Member
Finally took the Walsh inspired scheme for a drive against a user... A very good user at that!

It passed with flying colors!

I lost the game 35-31 but my opponent never slowed me down. A bad read on a play led to my only int...and 4 drops in 2nd half by my Wr's sealed my fate!

One was a TD dropped in the end zone... The other 3 all killed promising drives. Didn't go to spread or shotgun one time the entire game. Only downside was my lack of a run game. I've since figured out what I need to do!

I could see my opponent scrambling to try and find something to slow me down! I scored TD's on every possession in the 1st half! The second half started like the first with me going right down the field... But my TE dropped the pass in the end zone... So I had to kick the FG.

Eventually... My opponent went to cheesy tactics to win the game. On offense he'd audible multiple times... EA only allows defense to audible once... Smh! On defense he began dropping 11 into coverage. I still had a chance to win the game... But on 4th and 6 my QB threw his only WTF? Pass of the game. It sailed behind my receiver on a simple slant.

All in all I like the feel of the offense.... I'm not a skilled passer and it allows me to put up big passing numbers. It also cuts down my progression reads. I'm able to get the ball out very quickly... Didn't take any sacks!

I like running a scheme that no one sees... Much harder to defend.

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Finally took the Walsh inspired scheme for a drive against a user... A very good user at that!

It passed with flying colors!

I lost the game 35-31 but my opponent never slowed me down. A bad read on a play led to my only int...and 4 drops in 2nd half by my Wr's sealed my fate!

One was a TD dropped in the end zone... The other 3 all killed promising drives. Didn't go to spread or shotgun one time the entire game. Only downside was my lack of a run game. I've since figured out what I need to do!

I could see my opponent scrambling to try and find something to slow me down! I scored TD's on every possession in the 1st half! The second half started like the first with me going right down the field... But my TE dropped the pass in the end zone... So I had to kick the FG.

Eventually... My opponent went to cheesy tactics to win the game. On offense he'd audible multiple times... EA only allows defense to audible once... Smh! On defense he began dropping 11 into coverage. I still had a chance to win the game... But on 4th and 6 my QB threw his only WTF? Pass of the game. It sailed behind my receiver on a simple slant.

All in all I like the feel of the offense.... I'm not a skilled passer and it allows me to put up big passing numbers. It also cuts down my progression reads. I'm able to get the ball out very quickly... Didn't take any sacks!

I like running a scheme that no one sees... Much harder to defend.

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do your traditional wco offense formations like pro, far, ect?
 

LEGEND

Well-Known Member
do your traditional wco offense formations like pro, far, ect?
Only split backs pro! The others are not in the game. You can create similar looking formations... but I'm not sure they're worth the effort.

It's why I said Walsh inspired scheme! I use a lot of I formation twins, close twins, and slot. I also have Pistol H Twins flex & Strong slot. I chose normal I because it doesn't give away much in which way the play is going. Unlike yrs past you could motion the FB away... Now the FB only motions the direction of the run.

It's more than enough.... Although I have Strong I Y flex and some 11 personnel formations. In two user games no one seems to have answers to it. It's not something most are accustomed to playing against. So they don't know how to attack it. Most start out running man and quickly learn that won't work! From there it's just a buffet because it shreds zone.

Now that I have it worked out how I want to attack defenses... I'll probably add some more Strong I and Weak I to the mix. I eventually want to remove all my shotgun and one back stuff! I have no problem stretching the field... And I really enjoy the YAC yards!

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Only split backs pro! The others are not in the game. You can create similar looking formations... but I'm not sure they're worth the effort.

It's why I said Walsh inspired scheme! I use a lot of I formation twins, close twins, and slot. I also have Pistol H Twins flex & Strong slot. I chose normal I because it doesn't give away much in which way the play is going. Unlike yrs past you could motion the FB away... Now the FB only motions the direction of the run.

It's more than enough.... Although I have Strong I Y flex and some 11 personnel formations. In two user games no one seems to have answers to it. It's not something most are accustomed to playing against. So they don't know how to attack it. Most start out running man and quickly learn that won't work! From there it's just a buffet because it shreds zone.

Now that I have it worked out how I want to attack defenses... I'll probably add some more Strong I and Weak I to the mix. I eventually want to remove all my shotgun and one back stuff! I have no problem stretching the field... And I really enjoy the YAC yards!

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On the pro and splitback formations do you have trouble running the ball. I always felt it was hard to audible run left or right if they look wasn't good by default.

Similar questions with the weak, and strong formations about the ability to audible left or right
 

LEGEND

Well-Known Member
On the pro and splitback formations do you have trouble running the ball. I always felt it was hard to audible run left or right if they look wasn't good by default.

Similar questions with the weak, and strong formations about the ability to audible left or right
I've noticed that you need more variety of runs! I usually just have an IZ\OZ run game. One of each... But with the pro I have at least three runs. Usually blast/lead, Dive/slam and Stretch! IMO you need to be able to attack different gaps with the run from pro.

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LEGEND

Well-Known Member
On the pro and splitback formations do you have trouble running the ball. I always felt it was hard to audible run left or right if they look wasn't good by default.

Similar questions with the weak, and strong formations about the ability to audible left or right
What I've also noticed is guard play is really important in under center formations! You gotta have beast at the guards or the pressure will be relentless!

I have run blocking guards... I'm thinking for pro balanced is probably best! My guards are revolving doors although their pass block ratings are mid to high 80's

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LEGEND

Well-Known Member
I think it's much easier to run from weak & Strong I than traditional I. Also the FB tends to block better on runs from strong or weak.

No matter how good of a blocker your TE is... He will always get turned by who's ever over him! So he'll be your weak point every play in run blocking.

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LEGEND

Well-Known Member
On the pro and splitback formations do you have trouble running the ball. I always felt it was hard to audible run left or right if they look wasn't good by default.

Similar questions with the weak, and strong formations about the ability to audible left or right
I ditched the Split back pro stuff... The runs were too limited IMO. With running From Strong I, Weak I or Traditional I... I like running dive, blast/lead, and off tackle. Those runs give me the ability to bounce the run to any hole.

For the most part... I just follow the FB. I keep an eye for any cut back lanes or creases.

So far so good!

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Craig7835

Well-Known Member
I ditched the Split back pro stuff... The runs were too limited IMO. With running From Strong I, Weak I or Traditional I... I like running dive, blast/lead, and off tackle. Those runs give me the ability to bounce the run to any hole.

For the most part... I just follow the FB. I keep an eye for any cut back lanes or creases.

So far so good!

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The Split Backs/Pro is more of a passing formation than a running formation.The only run that is pretty good is the HB Sweep but if I want some good runs,I'll stick to Normal I & some dives from Strong-I