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2016-17 NBA Season: no IT ITT

Soonerfan09

Soonerfan09

Well-Known Member
zoltan said:
I pose a question to the finest basketball minds in this thread:

If Russell Westbrook and James Harden would have switched teams with each other at the beginning of the season, how much of a different impact do you think they would have had on their respective teams considering the personnel and coaching contrasts?


The reasoning for this question is because I continually hear James Harden being pretty much confirmed as a lock for the MVP even though Westbrook is going to average a triple double, something that hasn't been done for decades, while carrying his rag tag group of misfits into the playoffs. I wonder who is truly more valuable. Would Harden be able to do the same with that group on the Thunder, and if Westbrook was on the Rockets, do you think they win more games or less than they are right now with Harden on their team?
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Ain't nobody winning the MVP 'cept Westbrook. Harden will be a fairly close second and Leonard will steal some votes, but Westbrook will win the MVP.
 
silverwheels

silverwheels

PLAY LA BAMBA BABY
"Most Valuable" is such an ambiguous term. If you think about how bad rhubarb would be without RUSS plus the stats he's putting up, including his clutch time numbers, then by that measure he should win. But people change the definition of MVP from year to year.
 
evil1

evil1

Well-Known Member
If you swapped Westbrook and Harden I think both players and both teams have worse seasons.

Harden benefits from being surrounded by a lot of good shooters. If he was surrounded by OKC's supporting cast, the driving lanes would close much quicker and his assists would go down. You need a human wrecking ball/Tasmanian devil to generate points in OKC's offense like Westbrook does. On the flip side, I don't think Westbrook would be as efficient in terms of running Houston's offense.

If you were starting a pickup game, Kawhi and LeBron could easily be the first and second players picked. But they simply haven't had better 2016-2017 seasons than Harden or Westbrook. Case in point, this season Westbrook has averaged 5 pts/game more than Kawhi, 7 assist/game more than Kawhi, and 4.5 rebounds/game more than Kawhi.

I think Westbrook should win MVP, but I think the voters will give it to Harden.
 
GatorTD

GatorTD

Male
Mod Alumni
Harden on OKC would be alot like Harden last year. He'd put up numbers and the team would either miss the playoffs or sneak in as the 8 seed again.

I honestly think if RUSS was on this Rockets squad they'd be competing for the 2 seed.
 
mongoose

mongoose

Well-Known Member
Can't believe the Bucks are competing for the 5 seed. They looked DOA after Parker went down, but Middleton has been as good as advertised. Think they fare better against the Wiz rather than the raps, so a drop to #6 might not be so bad.
 
Brick

Brick

Well-Known Member
NBA knee jerk shit is unlike any other sport. In the last month both the Warriors and Cavs have been WORST TEAM EVA.
 
Hike

Hike

güero
Warriors Spurs was a good game to watch. Both teams are good. Warriors were up 10 with 2 minutes left and I was still worried about the outcome.
 
GuyIncognito

GuyIncognito

pressure cooker full of skittles
I think this is relevant to the whole "RUSS is just chasing stats" discussion.

Westbrook needed overtime for his historic stat line but played only 42 minutes. Thunder coach Billy Donovan has remained committed all season to managing Westbrook's workload, keeping him under 40 minutes for every non-overtime game this season. Westbrook has played 40-plus minutes only five times this season, and Wednesday was the first time it had happened since Nov. 30. For comparison, Harden has played 15 games with 40 or more minutes, and LeBron James has played 20.
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OU11

OU11

Pleighboi
Utopia Moderator
that three was the dumbest shot I've seen a grown man on any court take in a long while and it doesn't matter. he's getting better somehow.
 
silverwheels

silverwheels

PLAY LA BAMBA BABY
rhubarb would win maybe 20 games without RUSS; the rest of the team is that bad. His usage rate has to be that high just for them to be even an okay team. Tack on the moments where he goes supernova and that's how they've gotten to 43 wins, which shouldn't have happened. His "stat chasing" is necessary for the team.
 
silverwheels

silverwheels

PLAY LA BAMBA BABY
They really are that bad most nights, especially if Oladipo is off. Roberson is gr8 on defense but worthless on offense 95% of the time. Adams hasn't been anywhere near as good as he should have been this year. Kanter is like Roberson, only on offense. The rest of the team is meh except in small bursts (Abrines, McBuckets, Gibson, mainly) or just downright garbage (Sabonis, Christon, Singler).
 
sayo

sayo

YEET
He's definitely not chasing stats. He and harden are in unique systems that rely on them make plays nearly every possession. Does it inflate their stats? Sure, but it isn't chasing.
 
sayo

sayo

YEET
silverwheels said:
They really are that bad most nights, especially if Oladipo is off. Roberson is gr8 on defense but worthless on offense 95% of the time. Adams hasn't been anywhere near as good as he should have been this year. Kanter is like Roberson, only on offense. The rest of the team is meh except in small bursts (Abrines, McBuckets, Gibson, mainly) or just downright garbage (Sabonis, Christon, Singler).
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How much is that on the way they play though? They don't exactly empower their guys to do much creating and you can't just flip a switch when Russ isn't on the floor.
 
silverwheels

silverwheels

PLAY LA BAMBA BABY
sayo said:
How much is that on the way they play though? They don't exactly empower their guys to do much creating and you can't just flip a switch when Russ isn't on the floor.
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That's part of it, too. The offensive system in OKC is "just let RUSS be RUSS and hopefully everyone else won't suck", which obviously hinders the team when he's not out there. The 2nd best ball handler on the team is Oladipo, a damned shooting guard who is streaky on offense but normally really good on defense. Abrines and McBuckets are guys that can catch fire from deep if they can get just one to go in, but if not then they're kinda pointless.

But yeah, Donovan needs to figure out something to make the offense not a complete dumpster fire when RUSS is on the bench.
 
evil1

evil1

Well-Known Member
I think we talked about this before. One of the reasons why Westbrook is getting more uncontested rebounds is because the big men on OKC appear to be focusing on neutralizing the other team's rebounders. This essentially isolates Westbrook on the other team's guards to see who can get the rebound (a contest Westbrook almost always wins). Lo and behold, this strategy has resulted in OKC being one of the top teams in terms of preventing the other team from getting offensive rebounds (either 5th or 7th in the league depending on what stat you go by) and an improvement over last year.

In other words, Westbrook getting more uncontested rebounds isn't an instance of him chasing stats. It is the result of a strategy by OKC to improve their overall team rebounding using Westbrook's talents.
 
silverwheels

silverwheels

PLAY LA BAMBA BABY
Plus RUSS grabbing the rebound means he can immediately fly down the floor, either to set up the offense early or catch the other team off guard in transition.
 
OU11

OU11

Pleighboi
Utopia Moderator
Also I'm dying at getting uncontested rebounds being a knock. Why isn't anyone else there? Because GOAT is too fast, that's why.
 
GuyIncognito

GuyIncognito

pressure cooker full of skittles
Yeah, "the Thudner game plan puts RUSS in a position to get good numbers" and "RUSS is chasing stats" seems like two separate things.

If you had a guard that could rebound like RUSS, why *wouldn't* you do that?
 
mongoose

mongoose

Well-Known Member
The question I have, is how does OKC improve from here on out? To me, this is best iteration of a westbrook led team and it got them .581. What FAs are lining up to touch the ball 4 times a game and have all their stats gobbled up by the nasty snapping turtle? How many mitch mcgarys they gonna draft in the 20s each year? KD couldn't fucking wait to get the hell out and play a more fun brand of bball
 
OU11

OU11

Pleighboi
Utopia Moderator
mongoose said:
The question I have, is how does OKC improve from here on out? To me, this is best iteration of a westbrook led team and it got them .581. What FAs are lining up to touch the ball 4 times a game and have all their stats gobbled up by the nasty snapping turtle? How many mitch mcgarys they gonna draft in the 20s each year? KD couldn't fucking wait to get the hell out and play a more fun brand of bball
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all of them
 
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